Hey guys, it's 2011 not 2015.

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

Rookie of the year, Pro Bowls, All Pro, MVP, Super Bowl, most successful era of franchise history…..and you saying it doesn’t work. 

Cam shatters the record book as a rookie - you claim that should be deemed  mediocre because of wins 

Cam goes 12–4 or 11-5 and you claim that too is mediocre…..because….well, because….

So how many wins do you want to attach to a season before it would be acceptable to call a year better than mediocre or decent?  Because you about to rewrite some narratives on a bunch QBs. 

Three winning seasons out of eleven, none of them back to back, and the most successful of which ended in a humiliating defeat that we pretty much never recovered from.

I don't call that "working".

Maybe if someone like Norv Turner had been there at the beginning, we could have had more success. But by the time Norv got here the damage was already done.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mr. Scot

[CRA]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Three winning seasons out of eleven, none of them back to back, and the most successful of which ended in a humiliating defeat that we pretty much never recovered from.

I don't call that "working".

Maybe if someone like Norv Turner had been there at the beginning, we could have had more success. But by the time Norv got here the damage was already done.

Again, he blew out his shoulder in 2016.  That was it.   Now you are using all the post 2016 years to diminish what he was.  That’s some strong Ron hate. 

Cam, one good season lol.  That’s still nuts to say.  Which I suspect you know but can’t admit because your Ron hate caused you to overstep into absurd. 

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Again, he blew out his shoulder in 2016.  That was it.   Now you are using all the post 2016 years to diminish what he was.  That’s some strong Ron hate. 

What is Ron's record without Cam?  How is he doing in Washington?  Cam made Ron look better than he was IMO because he had to carry the team.  Give Cam a solid offensive minded coach and who knows how great he could have been.  

Look IMO Ron is a good high character man who knows defense, but unfortunately he is just an average HC in today's NFL.  Give him an elite OC and yeah he could look good, but that OC would just plucked away for a HC job.  

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

What is Ron's record without Cam?  How is he doing in Washington?  Cam made Ron look better than he was IMO because he had to carry the team.  Give Cam a solid offensive minded coach and who knows how great he could have been.  

Look IMO Ron is a good high character man who knows defense, but unfortunately he is just an average HC in today's NFL.  Give him an elite OC and yeah he could look good, but that OC would just plucked away for a HC job.  

Belichick isn’t a great coach without the right talent.   Pete Carrol has been blunt on it too.   Andy Reid’s playcalling is brilliant or flawed depending who is throwing. 

Ron was a good coach.  Not great.    Easier to do worse than better.    And hell, Frank is an offensive Ron Rivera.  

I generally just mix it up when folks go too far.  The Ron/Cam slander just goes too far into the comical. 

[KSpan]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Belichick isn’t a great coach without the right talent.   Pete Carrol has been blunt on it too.   Andy Reid’s playcalling is brilliant or flawed depending who is throwing. 

Ron was a good coach.   Easier to worse than better.    And hell, Frank is an offensive Ron Rivera.  

I generally just mix it when folks go too far.  The Ron/Cam slander just goes too far. 

There were plenty of example of Ron being a poor strategist, failing to manage clock, making odd personnel choices, etc. It's not slander to say he's an average at best coach - after 12 years and amassing a 98-90-2 record, it's just the reality. 

[CRA]

8 minutes ago, KSpan said:

There were plenty of example of Ron being a poor strategist, failing to manage clock, making odd personnel choices, etc. It's not slander to say he's an average at best coach - after 12 years and amassing a 98-90-2 record, it's just the reality. 

Ok.  That’s basically makes Ron a long time HC.  He was good.  Not great.  Not HOF tier. 

It’s easier to do worse than Ron.  And that’s because what you are deeming as an average NFL coach is worse than Ron.  That’s the math of it.  Most coaches are worse. 

[Mr. Scot]

11 minutes ago, CRA said:

Belichick isn’t a great coach without the right talent.   Pete Carrol has been blunt on it too.   Andy Reid’s playcalling is brilliant or flawed depending who is throwing. 

Ron was a good coach.  Not great.    Easier to do worse than better.    And hell, Frank is an offensive Ron Rivera.  

I generally just mix it up when folks go too far.  The Ron/Cam slander just goes too far into the comical. 

You've definitely "mixed it up" in this thread.

You're also wrong about Andy Reid. He's made average quarterbacks look great. Probably wrong about Pete Carroll too given how Russell Wilson is looking without him.

But you're most wrong about Ron Rivera being able to develop anybody.

23 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

What is Ron's record without Cam?  How is he doing in Washington?  Cam made Ron look better than he was IMO because he had to carry the team.  Give Cam a solid offensive minded coach and who knows how great he could have been.  

Look IMO Ron is a good high character man who knows defense, but unfortunately he is just an average HC in today's NFL.  Give him an elite OC and yeah he could look good, but that OC would just plucked away for a HC job.  

All correct...

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

Ok.  That’s basically makes Ron a long time HC.  He was good.  Not great.  Not HOF tier. 

It’s easier to do worse than Ron.  And that’s because what you are deeming as an average NFL coach is worse than Ron.  That’s the math of it.  Most coaches are worse. 

I don't think it's that hard to do better than Ron either...as long as you don't hire Matt Rhule.

[KSpan]

6 minutes ago, CRA said:

Ok.  That’s basically makes Ron a long time HC.  He was good.  Not great.  Not HOF tier. 

It’s easier to do worse than Ron.  And that’s because what you are deeming as an average NFL coach is worse than Ron.  That’s the math of it.  Most coaches are worse. 

Yes, that's the definition of 'average at best'. A number are worse, but also a number are better.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

I don't think it's that hard to do better than Ron either...as long as you don't hire Matt Rhule.

Only 1/5 of the coaches in NFL history are above .500 and there are hundreds upon hundreds of them. 

Fox and Ron were both good coaches.  Good coaches have flaws.  The next tier does too.  The one above that too. 

it’s easier to do worse.  It’s old and isolated new math. 

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Yes, that's the definition of 'average at best'. A number are worse, but also a number are better.

Yeah, but numbers of who is better and worse aren’t comparable groups.  One group is much larger.  The worse one. 

it’s like talking QBs.  It’s hard to find a good QB.  Let alone great or HOF caliber. 

[ForJimmy]

28 minutes ago, CRA said:

Belichick isn’t a great coach without the right talent.   Pete Carrol has been blunt on it too.   Andy Reid’s playcalling is brilliant or flawed depending who is throwing. 

Ron was a good coach.  Not great.    Easier to do worse than better.    And hell, Frank is an offensive Ron Rivera.  

I generally just mix it up when folks go too far.  The Ron/Cam slander just goes too far into the comical. 

All these coaches have had success even when you remove one key player. I’m simply removing Cam from Ron’s coaching career.  It just proves that Ron didn’t make Cam as much as Cam made Ron look better than he was in my opinion.

Frank isn’t an elite coach. He is the right coach to develop a young QB like Young. He is more of the right coach at the right time (or Reich coach if you want a good dad joke).  What excites me about Reich is the staff he has surrounded himself with this year. Caldwell, Capers, Brown, Evero, McCown, Campen etc are a great combination of old and new coaches. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by ForJimmy

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Only 1/5 of the coaches in NFL history are above .500 and there are hundreds upon hundreds of them. 

Fox and Ron were both good coaches.  Good coaches have flaws.  The next tier does too.  The one above that too. 

it’s easier to do worse.  It’s old and isolated new math. 

If you want to go by math, remember George Seifert had the best win-oss record in history. How'd that turn out?

[CRA]

Lot of disagreement is unshared definitions.

I mean some who claimed a 12-4 Pro Bowl season should be viewed as a mediocre/average season.