Go after Shedeur this offseason.

[ForJimmy]

24 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I would've loved to have had Howell get a shot to play under Pete Carroll but Carroll has obviously developed some pretty bad Geno Smith goggles in his final years and it might bounce him out of the league.

DC has some Pete Carroll similarities which is another reason why I think it would be a good fit.  To be clear I'm not saying DC is as good as Carroll just shares a similar personality/style of coaching since he learned under him.   

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm not saying they tell the whole story, but when a guy is measurably better at everything it seems logical to conclude that... well, he's better. It's pretty rare to compare two players where one is measurably better across the board and try to argue that the lesser performer is actually the better player. You'd expect to be able to find something to hang your hat on in the numbers.

David Carr has better stats than a lot of guys when he played. Hell, when we got him one of the big talking points was that he had the best completion percentage in the entire league.

Still didn't work out so well.

Are there stats that measure field vision? Not really. You can try to apply stats to argue for it but it's all extrapolation.

I go back to what I've said before as far as individual stats in a team game.

...

Statement: "Quarterback X has lousy completion percentage."

Question: How good are his receivers?

...

Statement: "Quarterback X hasnt thrown for more than 200 yards in a single game this year."

Question: Does his team have a run heavy scheme or a phenomenally effective run game?

...

Statement: "Quarterback X has thrown for 3000 yards this season."

Question: How many of those yards came after the catch? 

...

Statement: "Quarterback X didn't throw a pass further than ten yards last game." 

Question: But did he put the ball in good spots for his receivers to catch it and run for good gains?

...

There are hundreds of examples like this, examples that apply to just about every measurable there is in the game. 

One of the things I have always loved about football is the incredible complexity of the game. But that complexity makes player evaluation all that much more difficult and means that dependence on "simple metrics" just isn't something you can hold in high priority. 

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

David Carr has better stats than a lot of guys when he played. Hell, when we got him one of the big talking points was that he had the best completion percentage in the entire league.

Still didn't work out so well.

Are there stats that measure field vision? Not really. You can try to apply stats to argue for it but it's all extrapolation.

I go back to what I've said before as far as individual stats in a team game.

...

Statement: "Quarterback X has lousy completion percentage."

Question: How good are his receivers?

...

Statement: "Quarterback X hasnt thrown for more than 200 yards in a single game this year."

Question: Does his team have a run heavy scheme or a phenomenally effective run game?

...

Statement: "Quarterback X has thrown for 3000 yards this season."

Question: How many of those yards came after the catch? 

...

Statement: "Quarterback X didn't throw a pass further than ten yards last game." 

Question: But did he put the ball in good spots for his receivers to catch it and run for good gains?

...

There are hundreds of examples like this, examples that apply to just about every measurable there is in the game. 

One of the things I have always loved about football is the incredible complexity of the game. But that complexity makes player evaluation all that much more difficult and means that dependence on "simple metrics" just isn't something you can hold in high priority. 

That's why it's important not to cherry pick specific metrics which is what you're doing here to try to make your argument that stats don't matter. But when a guy is superior across the board... I mean, you're left with a real uphill battle to make a compelling argument with concrete data to back it up. You're basically left with trying to make the argument that despite this guy performing worse in practically every measurable metric of QB play, I think he's actually a better player. That's a tough case to make.

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's why it's important not to cherry pick specific metrics which is what you're doing here to try to make your argument that stats don't matter. But when a guy is superior across the board... I mean, you're left with a real uphill battle to make a compelling argument with concrete data to back it up. You're basically left with trying to make the argument that despite this guy performing worse in practically every measurable metric of QB play, I think he's actually a better player. That's a tough case to make.

I'm not cherry picking metrics. 

I'm ignoring all of them.

There are things about a player that stats are never gonna tell you. And there are things you might think stats tell you that are actually wrong.

We've been talking about Howell so I looked up his stats for last season with Seattle. In the two games where he played, he had a completion percentage under 36 percent and his overall quarterback rating was in the mid teens.

Should I consider those things valid for evaluative purposes?

[TD alt]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah...No.

When John Elway did it, it was entitled behavior.

When Eli Manning did it, it was entitled behavior.

Those two guys were significantly better quarterbacks than Sanders, and thus way better positioned to act like brats than Sanders was, but that doesn't excuse their actions.

My guess would be either Sanders, or more likely...his dad, thought he was on their level.

The NFL disagreed.

The guy he ultimately ends up bearing a closer resemblance to is Pat White from WVU. White didn't refuse to be drafted by any particular team, but he let it be known in team interviews that he would not play a Kordell Stewart "slash" type role (back when that was popular).

That dropped him on a lot of draft boards, and he wound up being nothing special at the pro level. I've long believed his attitude was part of that. His athletic skills were phenomenal and he was great at the college level, but hIs NFL career is basically a footnote.

Sanders Will likely be more memorable than White was, but probably more so for highlight reels than actual success. 

Dude, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges. What Elway did and what Eli did were different than what Shedeur did. Shedeur did not publicly demand anything. It was through back channels and was more like a request. The Ravens understood and honored it. But even if you consider it entitlement (which is debatable regardless if you want to admit it or not), it was to a much lesser degree. After sliding, Sanders really didn't have any leverage whatsoever. 

As for his attitude you can obviously believe what you want, but it has been widely reported that Shedeur's attitude has been great since being in the league. 

Opinions about what he is, will become or won't become is getting way ahead of ourselves. I prefer to just wait and see what happens. He's young and has had a pretty good start. Highlight-reel-plays aren't a bad thing. I'm not invested in trying to pull the kid down. I realize that just like any other QB that has been drafted into the league, it's hard to say what they will become unless you see an appreciable body of work. Three games ain't really it. I'll withhold judgment on what I believe he can become after I see more.

 

[Mr. Scot]

15 minutes ago, TD alt said:

Dude, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges. What Elway did and what Eli did were different than what Shedeur did. Shedeur did not publicly demand anything. It was through back channels and was more like a request. The Ravens understood and honored it. But even if you consider it entitlement (which is debatable regardless if you want to admit it or not), it was to a much lesser degree. After sliding, Sanders really didn't have any leverage whatsoever. 

As for his attitude you can obviously believe what you want, but it has been widely reported that Shedeur's attitude has been great since being in the league. 

Opinions about what he is, will become or won't become is getting way ahead of ourselves. I prefer to just wait and see what happens. He's young and has had a pretty good start. Highlight-reel-plays aren't a bad thing. I'm not invested in trying to pull the kid down. I realize that just like any other QB that has been drafted into the league, it's hard to say what they will become unless you see an appreciable body of work. Three games ain't really it. I'll withhold judgment on what I believe he can become after I see more.

One being done publicly while the other was done privately doesn't really make it any better.

It's still basically saying "I deserve better than this", and it gives people a really bad taste in their mouths.

Not only did the league disagree, but they took a rather dim view of the whole episode...and rightly so.

As to highlight reel plays, I xould put together a highlight reel of Bryce that would make him look like the best thing going. But once you saw him play a full game, you'd know the truth.

Hell, guys like Ryan Leaf, Michael Vick and Rex Grossman could put out great highlight reels. You just had to kinda look away when they did the...other stuff

Bottom Line for me, if I were giving Sanders career advice right now, I can tell you what my first suggestions would be:

- Tell your dad to sit down, shut up and butt out.

- Likewise, find yourself an agent that has absolutely nothing to do with Deion or any of his close associates

- Also sign up with  a QB coach that'll always tell you the unvarnished truth, not just say how great you are

To sum it up, ggo out there and make it or break it without your famous father's influence, comments or his very public presence.

I doubt that happens, but I don't doubt that it might be the best thing for him.

Edited 7 hours ago by Mr. Scot

[Proudiddy]

41 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's why it's important not to cherry pick specific metrics which is what you're doing here to try to make your argument that stats don't matter. But when a guy is superior across the board... I mean, you're left with a real uphill battle to make a compelling argument with concrete data to back it up. You're basically left with trying to make the argument that despite this guy performing worse in practically every measurable metric of QB play, I think he's actually a better player. That's a tough case to make.

This is what Brycers do.  Still.

”Yeah, I know he sucks and is statistically the worst starting QB in the NFL since he was drafted, but no one else would be an upgrade in my personal opinion, so we should keep starting him.”

[LinvilleGorge]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm not cherry picking metrics. 

I'm ignoring all of them.

There are things about a player that stats are never gonna tell you. And there are things you might think stats tell you that are actually wrong.

We've been talking about Howell so I looked up his stats for last season with Seattle. In the two games where he played, he had a completion percentage under 36 percent and his overall quarterback rating was in the mid teens.

Should I consider those things valid for evaluative purposes?

Sigh... go back and read the post I quoted and then honestly try to tell me you weren't cherry picking metrics to try to make your point. Then you pick two games (with a combined 14 passing attempts in them) out of 20 total games (with a combined 631 passing attempts in the other 18 games) to further demonstrate you aren't cherry picking? I mean... I guess I should thank you for taking the time to demonstrate my point. LOL

[AggieLean]

Y’all are wasting your time lol

[TD alt]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

One being done publicly while the other was done privately doesn't really make it any better.

It's still basically saying "I deserve better than this", and it gives people a really bad taste in their mouths.

Not only did the league disagree, but they took a rather dim view of the whole episode...and rightly so.

As to highlight reel plays, I xould put together a highlight reel of Bryce that would make him look like the best thing going. But once you saw him play a full game, you'd know the truth.

Hell, guys like Ryan Leaf, Michael Vick and Rex Grossman could put out great highlight reels. You just had to kinda look away when they did the...other stuff

Bottom Line for me, if I were giving Sanders career advice right now, I can tell you what my first suggestions would be:

- Tell your dad to sit down, shut up and butt out.

- Likewise, find yourself an agent that has absolutely nothing to do with Deion or any of his close associates

- Also sign up with  a QB coach that'll always tell you the unvarnished truth, not just say how great you are

To sum it up, ggo out there and make it or break it without your famous father's influence, comments or his very public presence.

I doubt that happens, but I don't doubt that it might be the best thing for him.

Oh it absolutely makes a difference to have your people talk to the GM in private than to make public proclamations. I really don't understand how anyone could say different, but I guess it's an opinion. 

I can't say what view the league had. I believe it was more about pre-draft stuff than anything that happened on day three. Of course the Browns drafted him 3 picks later, so at this point it doesn't really matter, as he's in the league.

Deion Sanders has taken a step back. He's always going to be in the picture to some extent because of who he is. As a father, it's OK to guide your son in private, and it's also OK to praise him publicly. 

[TD alt]

3 hours ago, AggieLean said:

Y’all are wasting your time lol

Just shooting the sh¡t. At the end of the day, the Browns aren't going to let Shedeur go anywhere if he keeps showing like he did Sunday, much less improving upon it. 

On an off note, speaking of improvement, I hope Bryce doesn't sh¡t the bed like he's been prone to do while we're actually still fighting for something. This is the time for him to keep improving. 

[kungfoodude]

7 hours ago, mrBdawg said:

What makes you say those things about Kyler? What makes you believe Kyler sees the field better? His decision making? Where are you getting that? It’s just your opinion? Is it emotion based?

Kyler has played awful this year. I’ve watched nearly every Cardinals game due to where I’m located for work. He’s been complete garbage this year. There’s a reason he got benched, it’s because he has some good weapons and a good scheme and could do NOTHING with it. Brissett has played far better in that offense.
 

Bryce is pretty obviously the better quarterback at this point in their careers. You won’t find many to back you up on your stance outside of this website.

Both statistically and the "eye test" lean extremely heavily towards Kyler.

Kyler is extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY clearly a better overall QB than Bryce. There is literally no compelling argument to be made because no one has been able to make one other than "I don't like him!"

Is he a top 20 QB? Probably not. But compared to Bryce, he's a very good QB.

[kungfoodude]

6 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's why it's important not to cherry pick specific metrics which is what you're doing here to try to make your argument that stats don't matter. But when a guy is superior across the board... I mean, you're left with a real uphill battle to make a compelling argument with concrete data to back it up. You're basically left with trying to make the argument that despite this guy performing worse in practically every measurable metric of QB play, I think he's actually a better player. That's a tough case to make.

I mean, I keep trying to get this point across but it's wild how there doesn't exist any statistic on this planet that shows Bryce to be better than Kyler nor apparently any reasonable measure at all other than, "Cause I said so."

Well, I guess if that's the way you want to make an argument, I can just never be wrong at all. Sounds pretty familiar in this modern society we have here.....

[Stuart Smith]

9 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Sure I can. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Am I sitting here begging for us to sign Sam Howell to a franchise QB contract or a one year $27M contract? Nope. I'm saying I want us to sign a more physically talented veteran QB to a reasonable short-term contract compete with Bryce next year and Howell fits that bill. Howell is my pick in large part because he's my favorite college QB of all-time. But if we signed someone like say Mariota instead, honestly that's fine too.

Rather have Howell. Rivera said he asked too much too early in Washington.