Why does Bryce get the blame?

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

DC was only full an OC one year and it was with the Bucs on Baker's "bounce back year."  That year Baker posted his lowest average yards per attempt outside the the year he played here/LAR at 7.1.  This is with Evans and Godwin as his WRs too.  When DC left the very next year he went from 7.1 to 7.9.  DC does test the deep ball periodically but so far his offenses rely heavily on quick pass first reads.  He does try to run to setup the pass, but he is also too quick to abandon the run.  He is honestly still very green as a play caller much less one that is also a HC.

Yep. His OCs back in his Seattle days were guys like Darrell Bevell, Brian Schottenheimer and Shane Waldron. 

[kungfoodude]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yep. His OCs back in his Seattle days were guys like Darrell Bevell, Brian Schottenheimer and Shane Waldron. 

I think people look too heavily to where he was and not what he did in the one season he actually was an OC. 

Yes, Russell Wilson and Geno Smith were launching long bombs in Seattle but he was just a positional coach. Those weren't his offenses.

[strato]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Tilis isn't really a personnel guy based on his resumé. He's more of an analyst/ organizational type.

(that's why I wasn't in favor of him as a GM candidate)

That's not to say he doesn't have personnel input, mind you. But that's not truly where his expertise lies.

What he does bring to the organization is experience, history and a solid record in areas that aren't necessarily Morgan's strong suit. 

There is video somewhere of Tillis commenting on Wharton and knowing him in KC.  Probably on the team site in one of those blueprint things or the like.  

[CRA]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

You're not demonstrating a very good grasp of the offensive principles here.

Coryell: combine power run game with deep downfield passing to keep the box from being stacked underneath 

WCO: pitch and catch / extended handoffs; throw short to skill players and let them get yards after catch; backs are mostly fast, shifty types but it's good to have a power runner for short yardage and goal line situations; occasional downfield chucks to back the defense off the line but they're not bread and butter 

Yeah, I know you want to do your thing here. 

Please point out where in Canales’ journey before arriving here…..his offensive tree worked without the style QB pointed out? I’ll wait.  

You wanting to nitpick broad offenses doesn’t change what I said.  We are specifically talking about the Canales tree/variant 

and Canales’ boring and unimaginative offense (his words too)…..needs a QB (just like everywhere else he has been) to put it over the the top and bail it outs 

[CRA]

56 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

DC was only full an OC one year and it was with the Bucs on Baker's "bounce back year."  That year Baker posted his lowest average yards per attempt outside the the year he played here/LAR at 7.1.  This is with Evans and Godwin as his WRs too.  When DC left the very next year he went from 7.1 to 7.9.  DC does test the deep ball periodically but so far his offenses rely heavily on quick pass first reads.  He does try to run to setup the pass, but he is also too quick to abandon the run.  He is honestly still very green as a play caller much less one that is also a HC.

that's why I reference the entire specific tree Canales came up in and what made the offenses work at each point in time. 

You have 3 offenses.  Wilson, Geno and Baker.   

They all have shared the same traits that made them work.  All the offenses have been relatively uncreative (which Canales essentially conceded he wasn't bringing rocket science to Carolina) and have been dependent on having an aggressive QB downfield to essentially provide the balance to a predictable and boring offensive scheme. 

Deep dive was done into the passing game of all those dudes/offenses before the Bryce/Canales era ever kicked off.   Canales specific tree has always been dependent on the downfield ball at every stop.   It hasn't worked at any point without QB that naturally is aggressive downfield and helps bail the O out.   

[ForJimmy]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

that's why I reference the entire specific tree Canales came up in and what made the offenses work at each point in time. 

You have 3 offenses.  Wilson, Geno and Baker.   

They all have shared the same traits that made them work.  All the offenses have been relatively uncreative (which Canales essentially conceded he wasn't bringing rocket science to Carolina) and have been dependent on having an aggressive QB downfield to essentially provide the balance to a predictable and boring offensive scheme. 

Deep dive was done into the passing game of all those dudes/offenses before the Bryce/Canales era ever kicked off.   Canales specific tree has always been dependent on the downfield ball at every stop.   It hasn't worked at any point without QB that naturally is aggressive downfield and helps bail the O out.   

Again his one year calling plays happened to be Baker's lowest YPA not counting his split year hear.  That tells me he was less aggressive with a QB who likes to be aggressive.  We have that and almost 2 full years of Bryce Ball here in Carolina.  He will take some deeps shots as most offenses have to in order to keep the defense honest.  Quick passes and hopeful YAC.  I'll give you one guess to which year Rachaad White had the most receptions as TB's RB?  Remember the first thing he wanted to do here is focus on how quickly he wanted to get the ball out.  That's part of his recipe to help QBs and help his OL.  Run the ball, quick passes to hopefully players in space, sprinkle in a little PA.  

So yeah you can look at some coaches he learned under and speculate, but I am telling you what he literally is doing and has done as a play caller.  Offenses that were and are 100% his baby.

[Mr. Scot]

56 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I think people look too heavily to where he was and not what he did in the one season he actually was an OC. 

Yes, Russell Wilson and Geno Smith were launching long bombs in Seattle but he was just a positional coach. Those weren't his offenses.

Valid, and throw in that what Wilson and Smith did is not out of the ordinary for a WCO 

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

I think people look too heavily to where he was and not what he did in the one season he actually was an OC. 

Yes, Russell Wilson and Geno Smith were launching long bombs in Seattle but he was just a positional coach. Those weren't his offenses.

Exactly.  Just because you are part of the staff of a Head Coach doesn't make you an immediate replica of that coach once you branch out on your own.  

[CRA]

15 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Again his one year calling plays happened to be Baker's lowest YPA not counting his split year hear.  That tells me he was less aggressive with a QB who likes to be aggressive.  We have that and almost 2 full years of Bryce Ball here in Carolina.  He will take some deeps shots as most offenses have to in order to keep the defense honest.  Quick passes and hopeful YAC.  I'll give you one guess to which year Rachaad White had the most receptions as TB's RB?  Remember the first thing he wanted to do here is focus on how quickly he wanted to get the ball out.  That's part of his recipe to help QBs and help his OL.  Run the ball, quick passes to hopefully players in space, sprinkle in a little PA.  

So yeah you can look at some coaches he learned under and speculate, but I am telling you what he literally is doing and has done as a play caller.  Offenses that were and are 100% his baby.

Go check what Baker did on 3rd down with Canales in Tampa.  He bailed a very meh offense out that season going downfield on 3rd down.  Like said, there is a deep dive thread somewhere about every stop.  There are some deep dive articles that go into the magic Baker had to pull on 3rd down that season because the O actually sucked.  Which got talked about when Canales was hired (that the O wasn't actually good, Baker was on big downs).  

Geno was absurd downfield for his comeback (think he lead the NFL in deep shots that season and we know Wilson was the king of the f you deep ball)

Canales needs to be paired w/ a playmaker at QB.  Just like every variant of the offenses he worked on needed to be to in order to make up for meh O schemes and meh overall playcalling. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, strato said:

There is video somewhere of Tillis commenting on Wharton and knowing him in KC.  Probably on the team site in one of those blueprint things or the like.  

About what we would have expected...

[electro's horse]

5 hours ago, Martin said:

The bar some of you have for Bryce is incredibly low.

And he can still walk under it. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

Yeah, I know you want to do your thing here. 

Please point out where in Canales’ journey before arriving here…..his offensive tree worked without the style QB pointed out? I’ll wait.  

You wanting to nitpicking broad offenses doesn’t change what I said.  We are specifically talking about the Canales tree/variant 

and Canales’ boring and unimaginative offense (his words too)…..needs a QB (just like everywhere else he has been) to put it over the the top and bail it outs 

No. What I'm actually wanting to do is discuss concepts that you don't seem to understand

(and that's odd given that I just gave a very base level explanation of the ideas)

You sound like you're trying to steer away from this discussion, which I suppose I get under the circumstances.

KFD and For Jimmy get it...

Edited 1 hour ago by Mr. Scot

[ForJimmy]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

Go check what Baker did on 3rd down with Canales in Tampa.  He bailed a very meh offense out that season going downfield on 3rd down.  Like said, there is a deep dive thread somewhere about every stop.  There are some deep dive articles that go into the magic Baker had to pull on 3rd down that season because the O actually sucked.  Which got talked about when Canales was hired (that the O wasn't actually good, Baker was on big downs).  

Geno was absurd downfield for his comeback (think he lead the NFL in deep shots that season and we know Wilson was the king of the f you deep ball)

Canales needs to be paired w/ a playmaker at QB.  Just like every variant of the offenses he worked on needed to be to in order to make up for meh O schemes and meh overall playcalling. 

That helps my case even more lol.  So he got stuck in 3rd and long a lot due to short smaller plays and HAD to throw it deeper on 3rd down and STILL posted his lowest YPA of his career.  I keep referring to YPA because it's the cumulative average vs focusing on certain downs.  It is interesting that Baker was good big on downs because we are actually pretty decent on 4th downs this year.  Maybe that's a little niche Canales is figuring out? 

Again Geno's offense wasn't Canales' offense.  He was the QB coach.  The OC (who again was not Canales) did throw it down field with DK and Lockett and rightfully so.  Now check out Geno without those weapons and maybe it will help you see that the deep ball is a WR stat more than anything.

Most every coach in the league needs a playmaker at QB.  It's what they are so expensive and teams mortgage their futures trying to get one.  

[CRA]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

No. What I'm actually wanting to do is discuss concepts that you don't seem to understand

(and that's odd given that I just gave a very base level explanation of the ideas)

You sound like you're trying to steer away from this discussion, which I suppose I get under the circumstances.

KFD and For Jimmy get it...

you want be to talk about broad schemes.   

I want to talk specifically about the offenses Dave Canales worked in.  Which is all Dave knows and it shows. 

If you don't want to talk about Dave's offenses? Cool.  Don't.  But that's all that really matters.  Dave Canales' brand of football in a convo about Dave Canales.