Some hard evidence why Shula needs to be fired now.

[JawnyBlaze]

For those who want Chud back how do you explain that we actually scored slightly less in 2012 than we did under Shula in 2013. 22.3 ppg for Chud versus 22.9 ppg for Shula.

combination of poor start for chud, going full regard on the read option poo and Cam's progression last year and the defense being much better at giving the offense more opportunities last year. If chud had been OC last year AND stopped trying to be too gd cutesy, as was previously mentioned, we probably would have averaged closer to 26 or 27 ppg.

[panthers55]

P55 you still think Shula is a great OC? Serious question on your thoughts?

I don't think he is a great OC.  I don't think he is that creative and would like to see him use the same looks but run different plays out of them to confuse the defense.  It seems that the defenses can often tell what we are going to run by how we line up given we run particular plays out of certain sets and don't mix things up a lot.  I don't think he is able to take whatever he has and make them the best they can be.  He runs a system and needs the players to run the system.  For example he likes to run the ball and needs running backs and O linemen to do that.  What have we not had?  healthy running backs and a decent O line. You can only blame him so much when you know what he does and you don't give him the players to run the system,

 

But on the other hand Chud wasn't as great as people make him out to be and he did very little to develop or work with Cam and in fact the thought I heard expressed in 2012 was that they had to limit Cam's options and decision making because he wasn't smart enough to read defenses and call his own audibles.

 

Truth is that we have never had a great OC and the ceiling for us has been around 25 points a game no matter who was here.

 

My issue is that this forum is simply a place to bitch and complain in multiple threads about the same 4 or 5 topics and few people actually back their opinions up by anything else but complaints.  Secondly many of the things that are said are not actually true.  For example who outside the huddle thought the offense would be anything but terrible.  Certainly not any of the experts out there. So all the people saying the players are not the problem are living in denial.  The difference between this year and last year isn't Shula but the lack of adequate personnel.

[Jeremy Igo]

To be fair, it has always been that way during losing seasons. It seems winning really does cure all ills.

[panthers55]

combination of poor start for chud, going full regard on the read option poo and Cam's progression last year and the defense being much better at giving the offense more opportunities last year. If chud had been OC last year AND stopped trying to be too gd cutesy, as was previously mentioned, we probably would have averaged closer to 26 or 27 ppg.

Part of why the defense was so much better in 2013 was that the offense controlled the clock and was very efficient scoring on drives after taking 5 or 6 minutes off the clock and keeping other offenses off the field.  If you look at the facts you would note that we were one of the best in long drives and flipping the field which benefitted the defense immensely.  The offense in 2012 had way too many 3 and outs and often put the defense as a big disadvantage and they wore out late. Their TOP was  almost 30 minutes while last year it was right at 32 minutes which is actually a lot.  Secondly Chud did little to develop Cam.  How many late game winning drives did Cam have in 2012?  One or two at most.  He had more than double that in 2013.

 

I appreciate you actually trying to use numbers to make a point but your numbers are just random speculation and have no basis in any facts. 

 

 

[panthers55]

To be fair, it has always been that way during losing seasons. It seems winning really does cure all ills.

True you will always have more bitching when we are losing versus winning but honestly most posters here rarely spend the time to think out their posts and use any kind of logic or facts to actually prove their points.  And then they go on and on in multiple threads each week saying the same thing.  After a while we get that you think Shula sucks.  If that is all you have then move on, we get it.  If you actually have well thought out reasons for why you believe it is the case then state those.

 

Some forums actually have a section where you are invited to post based on your quality of previous posts and knowledge and there is actually football discussion of a meaningful nature.

[bandu]

Regarding the topic of winning cures all ills is a double edge sword in this particular situation. because if we go 5-2. and finish out the season (8-7-1) and manage to make the playoffs; then we keep Shula and the rest of our coaching staff in tact more than likely.However, this is where everything takes an interesting turn,is that, if we continue to lose the rest of our games then your very likely looking at a whole new coaching staff plus the future of Cam Newton here in Charlotte also comes into question with that scenario,with the likes of Jameis Winston being avaliable on the cheap?

[JawnyBlaze]

Part of why the defense was so much better in 2013 was that the offense controlled the clock and was very efficient scoring on drives after taking 5 or 6 minutes off the clock and keeping other offenses off the field.  If you look at the facts you would note that we were one of the best in long drives and flipping the field which benefitted the defense immensely.  The offense in 2012 had way too many 3 and outs and often put the defense as a big disadvantage and they wore out late. Their TOP was  almost 30 minutes while last year it was right at 32 minutes which is actually a lot.  Secondly Chud did little to develop Cam.  How many late game winning drives did Cam have in 2012?  One or two at most.  He had more than double that in 2013.

 

I appreciate you actually trying to use numbers to make a point but your numbers are just random speculation and have no basis in any facts. 

 

What you're saying has merit, and I'm not trying to discount your stance completely.  My speculation at the end was not an attempt to seem as anything but speculation.  You're right the defense benefitted from a more efficient offense (in my opinion this was a result of personnel, not coaching. Cam's development, additions to the roster, etc), just as the offense benefitted from a better defense.  Which is why I think the biggest reason the offense as a whole was slightly better in 2013 was because of the development of Cam.  It SURE as hell wasn't because Shula is anything that resembles a competent OC. 

 

There really isn't a way to exactly quantify such claims for or against anything like that.  That's part of the beauty of sports, especially the NFL.  All parts depend on other parts and you can look at nothing in a vacuum.

 

You're entitled to whatever your opinion on Shula may be, and it is very unlikely there are any facts or stats that I'm not already aware of that will change my opinion on him.  He's turrible and the only thing I need to support that opinion are my own eyes.

 

[panthers55]

Regarding the topic of winning cures all ills is a double edge sword in this particular situation. because if we go 5-2. and finish out the season (8-7-1) and manage to make the playoffs; then we keep Shula and the rest of our coaching staff in tact more than likely.However, this is where everything takes an interesting turn,is that, if we continue to lose the rest of our games then your very likely looking at a whole new coaching staff plus the future of Cam Newton here in Charlotte also comes into question with that scenario,with the likes of Jameis Winston being avaliable on the cheap?

If we lost lets say 5 of the remaining games I highly doubt we get rid of Rivera.  He was after all the coach of the year last year and he didn't suddenly lose his talent.  Plus JR has always liked franchises like Pittsburgh who tend to keep their coaches long term.  In addition Gettleman comes from New York who has kept Coughlin through thick and thin.

 

No it is just stupid to wish we lose in order to change the coaching staff given it might not happen in any case.  The only positive here is that players are playing for their jobs and futures and will be doing everything they can to win as they should.

[Kuhndog94]

They never saw it coming!!!!

They didn't even have to, Cotch was still within 5 yards of the LoS when Cam got the ball back. The DB didn't even have to break his back pedal.

[panthers55]

What you're saying has merit, and I'm not trying to discount your stance completely.  My speculation at the end was not an attempt to seem as anything but speculation.  You're right the defense benefitted from a more efficient offense (in my opinion this was a result of personnel, not coaching. Cam's development, additions to the roster, etc), just as the offense benefitted from a better defense.  Which is why I think the biggest reason the offense as a whole was slightly better in 2013 was because of the development of Cam.  It SURE as hell wasn't because Shula is anything that resembles a competent OC. 

 

There really isn't a way to exactly quantify such claims for or against anything like that.  That's part of the beauty of sports, especially the NFL.  All parts depend on other parts and you can look at nothing in a vacuum.

 

You're entitled to whatever your opinion on Shula may be, and it is very unlikely there are any facts or stats that I'm not already aware of that will change my opinion on him.  He's turrible and the only thing I need to support that opinion are my own eyes.

 

No one would say that the defense didn't benefit from having guys like Hardy, Mitchell and yes the Captain because they did.  Just like the offense benefited from having guys like Gross and Wharton on the line, as well as Smith, and Ginn.  You can't separate personnel from coaching as they work together.

 

The problem in your logic is that you talk about the development of Cam as a big reason we were better then you denigrate Shula as the OC.  Who exactly developed Cam to this point?  Yeah that would be Shula. In fact he did the yeoman's work of developing him when Chud was here because Chud surely didn't take the time to do it.  In fact it was Shula involving Cam in every aspect of the offense last year and allowing him to audibelize and call his own plays that made him so effective. 

 

And you are wrong in saying that you can't quantify the impact Shula has had on Cam or the offense when we had the personnel to run his scheme.  Just look at the statistics and the results such as time of possession, scores per drive, fourth quarter comebacks etc.  But then again since they don't fit your notion that Shula sucks we ought to ignore them right??

 

 

Again I am not a big fan of Shula as people think and would be fine to see him go just to see what someone could do with our team with another approach.  And I think Cam is far enough along in his development that he could learn to adapt to another style and not be hurt in his development like other guys have been who get shifted from one OC to another.  I just don't like to see anyone be constantly criticized by folks who have no real basis to make those criticisms other than speculation and preconceived dislike.

[JawnyBlaze]

The problem in your logic is that you talk about the development of Cam as a big reason we were better then you denigrate Shula as the OC.  Who exactly developed Cam to this point?  Yeah that would be Shula. In fact he did the yeoman's work of developing him when Chud was here because Chud surely didn't take the time to do it.  In fact it was Shula involving Cam in every aspect of the offense last year and allowing him to audibelize and call his own plays that made him so effective. 

 

I think Cam had more to do with his own development than Shula did.  However, I'll certainly give credit to Shula for being involved in Cam's development.  I imagine he had SOMETHING to do with it anyway.  But that's not what we're talking about here.  We're not talking about Mike Shula the QB coach.  We're talking about Shula the OC.

 

 

 

And you are wrong in saying that you can't quantify the impact Shula has had on Cam or the offense when we had the personnel to run his scheme.  Just look at the statistics and the results such as time of possession, scores per drive, fourth quarter comebacks etc.  But then again since they don't fit your notion that Shula sucks we ought to ignore them right??

You can't quantify the impact because you can't separate it from other factors besides him that impacted the overall performance.  All those blind statistics aren't Shula statistics.  They're Cam statistics.  They're Smitty statistics.  They're Olsen statistics.  They're Gross statistics.  They're Gano statistics.  They're a combination of the talent on the field and Shula (and Rivera.)  Since the talent on the field wasn't the same as the previous two years you can't separate that and say the difference was Shula.

 

All I know, is with Chud, hell even with Davidson, there weren't nearly as many weekly slap my forehead wtf was he thinking moments.  I make my opinions and judgements based on what I see, not numbers on a spreadsheet.  And what I have seen for the past two years is the worst situational play calling I've ever seen for the Panthers in 20 years.

[panthers55]

I think Cam had more to do with his own development than Shula did.  However, I'll certainly give credit to Shula for being involved in Cam's development.  I imagine he had SOMETHING to do with it anyway.  But that's not what we're talking about here.  We're not talking about Mike Shula the QB coach.  We're talking about Shula the OC.

 

You can't quantify the impact because you can't separate it from other factors besides him that impacted the overall performance.  All those blind statistics aren't Shula statistics.  They're Cam statistics.  They're Smitty statistics.  They're Olsen statistics.  They're Gross statistics.  They're Gano statistics.  They're a combination of the talent on the field and Shula (and Rivera.)  Since the talent on the field wasn't the same as the previous two years you can't separate that and say the difference was Shula.

 

All I know, is with Chud, hell even with Davidson, there weren't nearly as many weekly slap my forehead wtf was he thinking moments.  I make my opinions and judgements based on what I see, not numbers on a spreadsheet.  And what I have seen for the past two years is the worst situational play calling I've ever seen for the Panthers in 20 years.

 

Cam came to us green and didn't know how to read defenses or even call complex  plays.  He didn't know route trees and he struggled with throwing to a spot instead of throwing to a man.  He gets credit for learning and working very hard and proving the critics wrong.  But it is laughable to suggest that it wasn't Shula who taught him most of what he knows.  And since Shula worked very hard as an OC to tailor the offense around Cam and allow him to learns and grow last year you can't separate him as an OC from a QB coach.  He has done the most for Cam of anyone on the Panthers.  And that is why he was promoted to our OC.  It wasn't because anyone thought that he was a genius signal caller or that he was so creative and inventive in his play calling, it was because he understood Cam better than anyone else and had a plan to develop him and build an offense around him.  And it worked until Gettleman thought he could bring in anyone and still get results and he is finding out that he was wrong.

 

As for what you are seeing,you see the result but not what was called or what should have happened. When you know what was supposed to happen and not just what happened then you might actually be able to talk intelligently about the offense.  You know where the ball went or who caught it but not what was actually called or what should have happened. Like on the thread where there were two receivers in the same area and suddenly it was poor play design.  Unless you know where they both were supposed to be you don't know where the problem was really. Therefore you have little clue like most fans.  Which is why I stick to the facts and what people say who are the experts because I know that what I see, may or may not actually be due to bad playcalling for example.

So far none of the people who are actually watching film or who know what we are doing are blaming Shula.  On Thursday night I was listening to Robinson on Panther gameday who went out of his way to say that while fans were upset with Shula, his understanding from those on the inside were that they were not blaming playcalling but instead were looking at poor execution.  I wonder what they know that you don't.  If you spent more time trying to figure that put you might have a better idea of what is really happening..Instead of the pat answer that they want to get rid of Shula but are supporting him until the end of the year. It could be true that they do not like him but until I hear it from someone on the inside I will take them at face value.

[AceBoogie]

Cam came to us green and didn't know how to read defenses or even call complex plays. He didn't know route trees and he struggled with throwing to a spot instead of throwing to a man. He gets credit for learning and working very hard and proving the critics wrong. But it is laughable to suggest that it wasn't Shula who taught him most of what he knows. And since Shula worked very hard as an OC to tailor the offense around Cam and allow him to learns and grow last year you can't separate him as an OC from a QB coach. He has done the most for Cam of anyone on the Panthers. And that is why he was promoted to our OC. It wasn't because anyone thought that he was a genius signal caller or that he was so creative and inventive in his play calling, it was because he understood Cam better than anyone else and had a plan to develop him and build an offense around him. And it worked until Gettleman thought he could bring in anyone and still get results and he is finding out that he was wrong.

As for what you are seeing,you see the result but not what was called or what should have happened. When you know what was supposed to happen and not just what happened then you might actually be able to talk intelligently about the offense. You know where the ball went or who caught it but not what was actually called or what should have happened. Like on the thread where there were two receivers in the same area and suddenly it was poor play design. Unless you know where they both were supposed to be you don't know where the problem was really. Therefore you have little clue like most fans. Which is why I stick to the facts and what people say who are the experts because I know that what I see, may or may not actually be due to bad playcalling for example.

So far none of the people who are actually watching film or who know what we are doing are blaming Shula. On Thursday night I was listening to Robinson on Panther gameday who went out of his way to say that while fans were upset with Shula, his understanding from those on the inside were that they were not blaming playcalling but instead were looking at poor execution. I wonder what they know that you don't. If you spent more time trying to figure that put you might have a better idea of what is really happening..Instead of the pat answer that they want to get rid of Shula but are supporting him until the end of the year. It could be true that they do not like him but until I hear it from someone on the inside I will take them at face value.

That's an awful lot of baseless gibberish for someone who came in here upset about the lack of statistical facts.

[panthers55]

That's an awful lot of baseless gibberish for someone who came in here upset about the lack of statistical facts.

Says the guy who never has anything of worth to add to any discussion.