Further indictment against Tolbert

[CRA]

I personally think Tolbert will end up on the roster, although I do appreciate the research the OP did.  Unless he shows something this year, though, can't imagine him on the roster next year.

I think Fozzy & Brockel are the likely candidates to be replaced by Wegher & Ward, who both deserve roster spots.

 

how do we know Wegher and Ward deserve spots playing against guys who will be selling insurance next month?

I think for them to earn spots they have to get some earlier reps and produce.  If they don't get those reps I think they will be practice squaders

[Jmac]

I believe D.G will have to play hardball with Rivera to cut him. Ron is loyal to his old players from the San Diego days. May have to do some arm twisting to do this.

[Darth Biscuit]

I don't have a problem keeping Tolbert...  I have a much bigger problem keeping Brockel.  I haven't seen him do poo... now, having said that he may contribute on STs that I'm not aware of, but blocking and receiving????  No.

 

His blocks, and one in particular, on the goal line Saturday night were a joke... he literally blocked no one.

[TheRed]

and he looked like a slower version of the slow guy we saw last year.

 

every think the run game stunk early last year bc Williams and Tolbert just weren't good enough as they approached the line?

 

Stewart didn't suddenly get exceptional holes.  He made stuff happen on his own often.  People didn't bring him down with finger tip touches like 34 and Tolbert quit going forward at contact.  Those were changes in the runners, not something the OL did

 

 I don't hate the guy and will root for him to return to form if we keep him. However it appears we may have cheaper, more affordable options now. The o-line was hot garbage last year. We all know that. The interior of the line, where he mainly goes behind was the strength of the line. The interior is not going to magically get that much better this year. So if we have the same line and he still cant produce behind them, then its a wast of a roster spot and cap space.

As far as everyone complaining about the stats I posted, they were mainly to illustrate his poor perfomance on his previous specialty. Pounding the rock on goaline and short yardage situations. He actually went backwards.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TolbMi00/splits/2014/

Here is his splits in those situations.

1-3 yards to go. 7 attempts, 10 yards. 1 first down.

Opponents 1-10 yard line. 7 attempts 0 yards

The other time we utilize him the most is 3rd down draws or as a blocker on 3rd down. On 3rd and 10+ to go heres how he faired. 

20 rushes for 54 yards. 1 1ST DOWN. So 54 of his 78 total rushing yards came on draw plays and he yielded us one first down.

So remove draw plays and he went 17 rushes for 24 yards and 4 1st downs, 0 TD's. That just does not add up to him being worth our 8th highest cap hit and the one guy we can actually see cap savings from by releasing.

He didn't look like the same guy last year. If he isn't the best guy for the job, and we can save cap space, let him go. No argument here.

But I think people should maybe consider pumping the breaks a bit with these lofty expectations for our newer backs after performances against 3rd, and 4th stringers. Tolbert wasn't the only one unable to get in the end zone against Miami. Not even Cam could get it punched in. Our red zone woes in particular are not limited to one player. Our play calling has got to improve.

Oh, and as Darth Biscuit just mentioned, for all the talk of Tolbert, Brockel should be talked about more as well.

[Hammerin'Cameron34]

No way is Tolbert gone, crazy talk

[panther4life]

He didn't look like the same guy last year. If he isn't the best guy for the job, and we can save cap space, let him go. No argument here.

But I think people should maybe consider pumping the breaks a bit with these lofty expectations for our newer backs after performances against 3rd, and 4th stringers. Tolbert wasn't the only one unable to get in the end zone against Miami. Not even Cam could get it punched in. Our red zone woes in particular are not limited to one player. Our play calling has got to improve.

Oh, and as Darth Biscuit just mentioned, for all the talk of Tolbert, Brockel should be talked about more as well.

Now that we can agree on. I have a huge disdain for Brockel wasting a spot, him and Nate Chandler. These guys need to go way before Tolbert. 

[CRA]

 

He didn't look like the same guy last year. If he isn't the best guy for the job, and we can save cap space, let him go. No argument here.

But I think people should maybe consider pumping the breaks a bit with these lofty expectations for our newer backs after performances against 3rd, and 4th stringers. Tolbert wasn't the only one unable to get in the end zone against Miami. Not even Cam could get it punched in. Our red zone woes in particular are not limited to one player. Our play calling has got to improve.

Oh, and as Darth Biscuit just mentioned, for all the talk of Tolbert, Brockel should be talked about more as well.

in fairness, Cam didn't try to punch it in.  He would have gotten in with two straight attempts like Tolbert had.  They don't run Cam in preseason.  That was a pass play and Cam only option on 3rd was to scramble around and finally try to run 30 yards for a yard 

[TheRed]

in fairness, Cam didn't try to punch it in.  He would have gotten in with two straight attempts like Tolbert had.  They don't run Cam in preseason.  That was a pass play and Cam only option on 3rd was to scramble around and finally try to run 30 yards for a yard 

I see your point. Not really trying to split hairs here.

To further touch on the subject of Cam running, I would like to see us have to rely less and less on using him as a battering ram in goal line situations. Let's not pretend like other teams don't know what's coming either. Yeah you want the threat to always be there, but we are often way too predictable.

[Seltzer]

how do we know Wegher and Ward deserve spots playing against guys who will be selling insurance next month?

I think for them to earn spots they have to get some earlier reps and produce.  If they don't get those reps I think they will be practice squaders

Fair point- they definitely deserve the reps.  The biggest thing is just how dominant they have been against the 3rd stringers plus the good things I have read from camp.

But you're right in that they need reps against the players at the top of the depth charts.  I personally think they will produce, but it something needed to properly evaluate.

[FourthWard]

[Carolina Cajun]

I would be ok with keeping him, but at this point, I want to see Ward and Wegher out earlier in a preseason game, if they perform, then it's time to move on from Tugboat.  Here is the easy way I think about it, if we cut Tolbert, will he get picked up?  I don't think he would honestly.  Right now, guys like Pierre Thomas, Knowshon Moreno, Ray Rice, and Steven Jackson are on the market with very little interest, so why would someone pick him up after he's missed all their training camp and coming off an injury plagued year?  Then you look at the replacement, would Wegher get picked up?  I have zero doubt, our options are keep him on the roster, or lose him for good because of his performances +appearance on "Undrafted", teams know who he is.  Would Lee get picked up?  I'm not sure, I know todays NFL is a very pass happy league, so someone like Lee is a bit of a dinosaur in retrospect.  That said, all teams need their big pkg and because of his age and his ability as a blocker, I could see someone like a Pitt or Baltimore picking him up.

Bottom line to me, will those cap savings be used on bringing in a receiver?  Thats cool, I'm on board with that.  The other option is that those cap savings can go towards Luke's contract and keep us more competitive down the line.  Also, I'm good with that.  I think I know where Gettleman falls in this discussion, the key is getting Rivera on board or just having Nipple Shorts go rogue.

[Donald LaFell]

Tolbert is a pretty unique player. I wouldn't be too quick to replace him. 

[Ace_Aladdin]

So it seems everyone in Zods youth movement roster projection seem on board with cutting Tolbert and I 100% agree.

Long story short,he had 37 carries for 78 yards (o tds). 12 receptions for for 93 yards and 0 TD'S.

Also Tolbert is the one player we can cut and see over 2 Million in cap savings immediately. I listed 3 play by play examples before he went down with injury. The rest I show how he did rushing vs what our other backs did.  Sorry Tolbert, time for you to go.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2014.htm

Lets go back and see what he did last year. This is against Tampa week 1.

Tolbert had 7 rushes for 11 yards. Deangelo had 14 for 72 against the same D. 9 for 20 for Stewart.

1

13:45

3

1

CAR 29

Mike Tolbert up the middle for -1 yards (tackle by Gerald McCoy)

0

0

0.23

-1.5

61.7

2

10:00

3

1

TAM 5

Mike Tolbert up the middle for no gain (tackle by Dashon Goldson)

0

0

4.96

3.03

45.1

2

0:10

2

10

TAM 11

Mike Tolbert up the middle for 1 yard (tackle by Gerald McCoy)

7

0

4.14

3.3

17.2

2:06

1

15

CAR 15

Mike Tolbert left end for 1 yard (tackle by Michael Johnson)

17

14

-0.31

-0.94

22.1

4

1:27

1

10

TAM 23

Mike Tolbert left guard for 1 yard (tackle by Gerald McCoy)

17

14

4.04

3.63

0.1

4

1:22

2

9

TAM 22

Mike Tolbert left guard for 4 yards (tackle by Michael Johnson)

17

14

3.63

3.49

0.1

Week 2 against against Detroit

4 rushes for -5 yards. Stewart had 9 for 20 and a TD.

2

8:44

2

6

DET 8

Mike Tolbert up the middle for -3 yards (tackle by DeAndre Levy)

0

0

4.83

3.29

67.5

3

4:41

1

10

50

Mike Tolbert right tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Isa Abdul-Quddus and Devin Taylor). Penalty on Nick Fairley: Illegal Use of Hands, 5 yards

7

6

2.26

2.72

62.9

4

11:12

2

12

DET 48

Mike Tolbert left end for no gain (tackle by DeAndre Levy and Isa Abdul-Quddus)

7

13

1.71

1.03

90.1

4

8:12

2

1

DET 1

Mike Tolbert up the middle for -4 yards (tackle by Nick Fairley)

7

13

5.91

4.26

98.3

Week 3 against Pittsburgh (done with the play by play)

Tolber 3 rushes for 4 yards, Stewart 5 for 31

Week 13 against Minnesota

Tobert 2 rushes for 5 yards, Stewart 12 for 85

Week 14 against New Orleans

Tolbert 5 rushes for 28 yards, Stewart 20 for 155

Week 15 against Tampa

Tolber 5 rushes for 2 yards. Stewart 22 for 75

Week 16 against Cleveland

Tolbert 7 Rushes for 19 yards, Stewart went 17 for 122

Week 17 against Atlanta

7 rushes for 12 yards. Stewart 13 for 49, Whitaker 7 for 41

 

 

Most people  follow the bandwagon train in a heartbeat here, I bet if Tolbert is hot on 3rd preseason game, everyone will basically do 180.

[panther4life]

 

Most people  follow the bandwagon train in a heartbeat here, I bet if Tolbert is hot on 3rd preseason game, everyone will basically do 180.

The huddle actually seems split. In Zod's youth movement roster, looked like everyone on there was all for dumping him. When I made this thread to illustrate his decline started last year, most oppose the idea of dropping him.

Personally I have my doubts he will get cut. I just see him as being overpaid and no longer capable of doing what we ask of him. Some is his own decline, some is our o-line really was horrible at getting any push up the middle. The way I see it is regardless of why he's not performing up to his contract is not as important as the fact that he is not.