Pick your GOAT: Luke, 89 or...

[DeAngelo Beason]

I'll give the breakdown below of each player, followed by my vote.

Pep:

Pros - Great player, great stats, finished near the top of the history books as far as overall production.  Consistent, but was never truly great outside of the one season where he was absolutely robbed of Defensive MVP.

Cons - Really was only the best player at his position for one season.  

 

Smitty:

Pros - Longevity, top player, or among the top players, at his position for a solid 5 years, continued being highly productive into his late 30s. Triple crown winner.  Could have played another two seasons and maintained his productivity.  

Cons - Hard to find any.  Personality in the locker room maybe?  Lacked the ability to force the team to adequately address the QB position until they were ready to cut ties with him?

 

Luke:

Pros - Once in a generation talent. The stats are almost video gameish.  Not just in the conversation for Panthers GOAT, he's in the conversation for all-time GOAT at LB, were it not for...

Cons - Health and longevity.  If this man could have put in another 5-8 years, there's absolutely no question he would be standing atop Olympus as the greatest defensive player the NFL had ever seen.  He's still way up there, but his career being cut short leaves him as a "lowly" hall of famer, and among the greatest defensive players in NFL history.

 

My choice for Panthers GOAT is....

Smitty.  Anyone with half a brain knows that if he'd been on a team with competent QB play this guy would have every record in the book.  He was virtually flawless as an actual player.  

[Happy Panther]

Get UP! is railing on this (in favor of Cam.)

[Cookie Lyon]

3 minutes ago, Happy Panther said:

Get UP! is railing on this (in favor of Cam.)

Yep. I saw that as well. LOL

 

[Cookie Lyon]

No lies detected.

Also, I've seen some discussion about the Panthers only choosing retired players for the GOAT debate which has to be the stupidest excuse I've ever heard. You don't have to be retired to be in the GOAT debate.

[Bronn]

I have to seriously question the motives of anyone picking Luke over Smitty first and foremost, and even Pep to an extent.

I'm not surprised, given our fan base still has a lot of holdover fans of a certain type.

Luke was great, yes. The Panthers GOAT? Laughable.

Dan Morgan and Jon Beason were great, too. Beason maybe even approached Luke level great.

None of them were on Smitty or Pep's level.

Teams FEARED Smitty and Pep.

Smitty is the greatest WR in the history of the NFL. Pep is likely the greatest DE in the history of the NFL. Luke is maybe a top 5 MLB of all time.

But while people praise Luke for his arguably brief career and numerous accolades (all of which he earned and deserves) they sure are quick to write off Smitty and Pep for things like locker room drama or "having heart" or whatever nonsense they can come up with.

I've even seen Pep's masculinity and sexuality questioned on these forums over the years. Same with Cam.

I wonder why that only occurs with certain players?
 

[CarolinaNCSU]

2 minutes ago, Bronn said:

Smitty is the greatest WR in the history of the NFL. Pep is likely the greatest DE in the history of the NFL. 
 

I love them both....but, wut?

Smitty's triple crown was insane, he's feared, if he played for the Cowboys he would've been more known, etc., but on what planet is he the best WR of all time? That's absolutely insane, and whatever your reply might be go for it because I'm assuming you're not changing your mind despite being maybe the only person on the planet with that take. 

Pep would have a better case at DE, but also no. He's maybe the most talented and you could easily argue Top 3, but those LB years aren't helping his case either if we're talking DE in history.  Reggie White, convo over. 

[LinvilleGorge]

1. Peppers - #4 on the NFL all-time sack list. He's one of the greatest defensive players ever.

2. Luke - arguably the best MLB of all-time, former DPOY, but short career.

3. Smitty - dominant WR despite having average QB play and playing in a conservative run first offense

4. Cam - the only MVP in franchise history. 

The only argument against Peppers is his time away from Carolina. He's a slam dunk first ballot HOFer. Luke might be too, we'll see. Luke will definitely get in one way or the other. Smitty and Cam deserve it, be I'm not 100% on either getting in.

[Carl Spackler]

19 minutes ago, Bronn said:

I have to seriously question the motives of anyone picking Luke over Smitty first and foremost, and even Pep to an extent.

I'm not surprised, given our fan base still has a lot of holdover fans of a certain type.

Luke was great, yes. The Panthers GOAT? Laughable.

Dan Morgan and Jon Beason were great, too. Beason maybe even approached Luke level great.

None of them were on Smitty or Pep's level.

Teams FEARED Smitty and Pep.

Smitty is the greatest WR in the history of the NFL. Pep is likely the greatest DE in the history of the NFL. Luke is maybe a top 5 MLB of all time.
 

I have to seriously question the motives of anyone comparing Luke to Dan Morgan first and then Jon Beason.

Dan Morgan - 1 Pro Bowl, 1 All-Pro
Jon Beason - 3 Pro Bowl, 2 All-Pro
Luke Kuechly - 7 Pro Bowl, 7 All-Pro, NFL Defensive Player of the Year, NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, 3 Butkus Awards, 2 seasons leading NFL in tackles

Insinuating Jon Beason or Dan Morgan are in any way comparable to Luke Kuechly is like saying Steve Beuerlein was basically as good as Cam.

Now, let's get on to the next point. Teams FEARED Smitty (even his own teammates) and Pep. You think they didn't fear Luke?

 

[Bronn]

1 hour ago, CarolinaNCSU said:

I love them both....but, wut?

Smitty's triple crown was insane, he's feared, if he played for the Cowboys he would've been more known, etc., but on what planet is he the best WR of all time? That's absolutely insane, and whatever your reply might be go for it because I'm assuming you're not changing your mind despite being maybe the only person on the planet with that take. 

Pep would have a better case at DE, but also no. He's maybe the most talented and you could easily argue Top 3, but those LB years aren't helping his case either if we're talking DE in history.  Reggie White, convo over. 

Put Smitty with Peyton Manning like Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison were in that era, and Smitty wins the triple crown every year and is close to, if not, #1 in receiving yards all time.

Smitty had Weinke, Peete, Moore, Testaverde, Clausen, Delhomme, and a young Cam. Aside from Cam in the twilight of his career, he had NOTHING at QB, was on a run first offense in a dying era of rushing offenses, had no real consistent supporting WR cast, and incompetent coordinators. He wasn't even given a shot at WR his rookie season.

As to the Pep points, Reggie White never did the things Pep did. He was legitimately pretty one dimensional, and he was good at being that one thing. A pass rushing DE that got the the QB fast. Pep dropped into coverage, got picks, returned picks, had goal line offense appearances, etc. But, I'll give you that the White/Peppers argument is a lot closer than someone comparable to Smitty at WR.

[Bronn]

33 minutes ago, Carl Spackler said:

I have to seriously question the motives of anyone comparing Luke to Dan Morgan first and then Jon Beason.

Dan Morgan - 1 Pro Bowl, 1 All-Pro
Jon Beason - 3 Pro Bowl, 2 All-Pro
Luke Kuechly - 7 Pro Bowl, 7 All-Pro, NFL Defensive Player of the Year, NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, 3 Butkus Awards, 2 seasons leading NFL in tackles

Insinuating Jon Beason or Dan Morgan are in any way comparable to Luke Kuechly is like saying Steve Beuerlein was basically as good as Cam.

Now, let's get on to the next point. Teams FEARED Smitty (even his own teammates) and Pep. You think they didn't fear Luke?

 

lol if not for the injuries to Morgan and Beason, we might not have even picked Luke.

The stats are skewed because of injuries, but they are all comparable players, regardless of what your homer goggles tell you. Beason was better than Morgan, and possibly even better than Luke in some areas.

I'm not discounting Luke was great. I'm just saying that Luke had comparable players in his own franchise's history. Smitty and Pep don't have many in the entire league.

[PantherPhann89]

I won't vote because Cam Newton should've been included. This is being petty and as an organization, we should be above this! 

[CarolinaNCSU]

2 minutes ago, Bronn said:

Put Smitty with Peyton Manning like Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison were in that era, and Smitty wins the triple crown every year and is close to, if not, #1 in receiving yards all time.

Sure, but those things didn't happen.  Playing the same what if game as you discredit Luke above, well if he was still playing blah blah blah he could've done blah blah blah.  Well, he didn't, so you can only judge the body of work. 

Love that the triple crown every year just gets assumed as well, despite it hardly ever being done. At the same time, you could easily say teams stacked the box to stop the run against us, giving him open space in the secondary. Or that Smitty was basically the only passing option some years, putting up a ton of stats that he wouldn't have on a good team.  Or you can say teams focused on him more.  You can play all sorts of what ifs, but again...you have what happened in front of you, not what you think could've happened. 

If you want to argue Smitty as a Top 10 WR, sure.  Top 5 is pushing it. The best? Insane.

[Carl Spackler]

5 minutes ago, Bronn said:

The stats are skewed because of injuries, but they are all comparable players, regardless of what your homer goggles tell you. Beason was better than Morgan, and possibly even better than Luke in some areas.

It doesn't matter how you twist this phrasing, it's still stupid and it's still egregiously false.

[Mills]

X-Clown