Why we SHOULD to do the Sign-&-Trade for Hayward

[bLACKpANTHER]

We have been in such cap-HELL for the past decade that I have really haven't thought to much about how to properly manage the cap-room we were about the be presented with. It's like I was starring at the Thanksgiving table in all it's glory, right before I push granny to the floor just to be first in line.. So when MKG, Marvin & Biz all were done in the matter of months and I'm looking at $43mil in cap space  with another $45 coming next season (Batum & Zeller), my mouth began to salivate at an alarming rate... "What do I go for first = the mashed potatoes (Kawhi), stuffing (PG13), turkey (Gobert) or right for the pumpkin pie (Giannis)??" It all seemed a bit unreasonable and too good to be true...

So Friday/Saturday happens and we sign Hayward to a huge deal. At first I was upset but then calmed down and am fine with it now. [I have catalogued my thoughts in other threads] But when I am presented with idea of waiving and stretching Batum's contract of $27mil over 3 years - and the number of a $9mil cap hit for 3 seasons - it just didn't seem like a huge deal.. I have logged on the Trade Machine multiple times a day starring at Batum's $27mil or Biz's $17mil or Marvin's $14mil or MKG's $12mil with tears welling up in my eyes.. So when $9mil is mentioned, forgive me for not grasping my pearls.. but I was wrong.. $9mil is nothing to just scoff at even in NBA money.. especially when you have some important decisions to make in the future..

OH WAIT!!! -- the future is now.. I was so focused on the older guys coming off the books for so long that I really haven't been worried about what to do with the young talent that actually plays.. I mean, they JUST got here right.. nope -- Monk & Graham are up next year then Bridges & Terry the year after followed by PJ.. and looking at the contracts that were just handed out this offseason, I can assume a few things:

D.Graham - 18ppg, 3.5rpg, 7.5apg
F.VanVleet - 18ppg, 4rpg, 7apg >>> just signed 4yr/$85 = $21 @ year

M.Monk - 10ppg, 3rpg, 2apg
M.Beasly - 11ppg, 3rpg, 1.5apg >>> just signed 4/$60 = $15 @ year

So if Graham's numbers stay similar (I imagine they will dip cause of L.Ball) - it would be in the neighborhood of $15-17mil @ year to keep him..
Monk would be similar if he continues on the upward trend and cost us $15mil @ year to keep him.. and Bridges the next year around $15mil as well..

All this to say a $9mil hit this year truly might not a big deal.. but next year when we want to keep Graham and/or Monk, and the following year with Bridges and/or Terry = $9mil could make things more difficult.. for Charlotte to sign FAs - we have to pay top dollar - remember Marvin gave us what was considered a "hometown discount" of $14mil @ year..

Any team can make a splash in FA (like Sacramento or Cleveland) but to then follow it up with the correct moves that allow you to solidify depth and not making the big splash hinder you in the future.. So I just need to pace myself this Thanksgiving & this FA offseason and find a way to save some space for next year when it matters..

[TheMaulClaw]

I guess the thing with the Hornets is.....We've spent over 30 years building for a future that never came except one year when we lost in the ECF 20 plus years ago.

It's been so long since we've even been relevant that I find my self yearning for the Al Jefferson Bobcats.  At this point I'd gladly take an 8th seed, I'm that desperate of a Hornets fan.

Time will tell if Hayward is a good signing, but ultimately for us it's a coup getting any talented FA to come here with the sort of losing expectations that this franchise has been saddled with.

Jordan in essence just spent big money in a pandemic to give fans a little hope.  Whether it was prudent or not is another question, but I love the gesture and it has me excited.

While I still think we're a legitimate big away from truly competing, I like our coach and we at least gave him some talent to work with.  All of us armchair gms like to think in terms of draft position and cap, and it's true it's a big factor.  However, every small market team that crawls out of the cellar and becomes a destination starts with a less talented team that over achieves.  That will always be true in sports.  We need a little talent and a lot of over achieving.  Let's pray this is the year.

[Ted]

Not sure I understand the anxiety over losing Malik Monk...

[Eazy-E]

1 hour ago, Ted said:

Not sure I understand the anxiety over losing Malik Monk...

He's 22 with top 3 potential on the team. Also losing him would be another wasted Hornets 1st round pick. Some players, regardless of how good they were in college, take time to fully develop into a NBA player. Even at 25 you're still a young player. Just the reality of drafting 19 year old kids.

[TheMaulClaw]

3 hours ago, Eazy-E said:

He's 22 with top 3 potential on the team. Also losing him would be another wasted Hornets 1st round pick. Some players, regardless of how good they were in college, take time to fully develop into a NBA player. Even at 25 you're still a young player. Just the reality of drafting 19 year old kids.

At 25 you're in your NBA prime especially if you've been in the league a few years. The chances of Malik getting better is probably nill.  He's an exciting player when he's on, but he's remarkably inconsistent.  If we did trade him we would be parting with a "what if" as opposed to a proven commodity.  I'd like to keep him but he is expendable.

[bLACKpANTHER]

16 minutes ago, TikTOK said:

If Jordan doesn’t want to tank for a top prospect in next year’s draft, he should try making a move for Myles Turner. Not really sure what the Pacers are doing. They should still contend for a playoffs spot as far as their roster right now. But there was plenty of rumors about trading Oladipo and Turner. Myles Turner would make us a 6-8 seed for sure and the East is up for grab again this new season. 

Cody actually produces better than Myles and costs $3mil less:
Zeller - 11.1ppg - 7.1rpg - 1.5apg - 0.4blk - 18.84 PER
Turner - 12.6ppg - 6.6rpg - 1.2apg - 2.1blk - 14.87 PER

I know Zeller ain't flashy but he does not kill us.. he's just not a rim protecter, like, At All.. which allows teams to attack the paint.. unless there is someone that is a significant upgrade - I say we keep Zeller and the young guy to see if someone can produce.. letting Cody expire next year will lessen the effect of stretching Batum's contract over next few year (if we can't figure out a S&T)..

[Stingray3030]

10 hours ago, TikTOK said:

Look at Kelly Oubre. It took him 4 seasons to really get it going and then was averaging 18ppg last season in his 5th. Malik Monk is so young. He’s been in the league for 4 seasons but is only a month older than Bridges (3 seasons) and 6 months older than PJ (2 seasons). That’s how young he is. Graham was in his 2nd year last season and exploded but was already 24. 

I do agree with you on the timing and development, the sucky part is the age and timing.  The problem with drafting a guy this young and waiting to develop is that if he doesn't do it quickly you have to decide to pay a BIG contract on potential or let him walk.  Use your Oubre example....the Wiz weren't sold on his potential so they traded him to get what they determined to be the best value as opposed to paying him....then Phoenix had to pay him a ton....then traded him for Chris Paul.  It is a risky play with the age and timing if they don't develop quick.

With Monk it is also different than Oubre given his size and position.  Oubre still hasn't developed a consistent jumper....it is better but his range is limited, but that is not that big of a deal as a SF.  He is making his living inside the 3.....Monk is not and likely can't.  He is shooting 50-60% of his shots from 3 and not hitting consistently.  He is not a great ball handler, not a great scorer, and still developing as a very good defender.  He is undersized for the 2 spot also.  He is arguably far behind Oubre at his position.  I'm not in for paying him $15M/yr....I would look to trade while he still has perceived potential.

[woahfraze]

Not sure why I haven't heard any discussion along these lines, but the problem with the sign and trade is that the two sides want seemingly mutually exclusive things.

The Celtics want a trade exception for Hayward's full salary, which would create enough cap room for them to be able to add another max contract player.  

The Hornets want to send salary to the Celtics to get under the cap and avoid having to waive and stretch Batum, thus clearing his contract from the books after this season. 

It seems to me the only path forward would be for Boston to accept some salary, which would prevent them from being able to sign a max player on their own. But then they could make another unrelated move to clear space so that next summer they could sign a max player with a combination of the trade exception of that new cap space.  Otherwise, the Hornets have already signaled willingness to deal with three years of Batum's stretched cap hit.

[Stingray3030]

5 hours ago, TikTOK said:

I agree with you. It hurts the future of your team if a player doesn’t develop quick enough. But that’s a problem in the NBA ever since when. It has to do more with the NBA letting guys enter the draft at such a young age. Guys used to come out right after high school back in the days. Now, it’s a one and done. Our very own Gerald Wallace was a 1st rounder selected by the Kings at age 19. Was a bench player for three seasons in Sac until he came to Charlotte. 
 

Monk has all the talents in the world. He’s one of Calipari’s favorite players. Calipari wanted him to New York badly. He believed that Monk could help turn the Knicks around. He just came out recently said that he wishes he had been harder on Malik Monk. Stated that the game and practices were so easy for Monk than other guys he coached. 
 

100% - and this team has been exceptionally bad at picking talent that develops eventually....it has been so few players that Kemba is easily justified as a lucky pick.  This draft in particular had absolutely zero guaranteed stars.....a huge group of "could be's".  Bridges will be the same as Monk if he doesn't take a step forward this year.....then PJ if....and Graham.... 

[DaveThePanther2008]

This was just posted on ESPN

Does this mean that Haywood is going back to Boston?  I'm not into how the trade rules work in the NBA?

11:02 a.m. ET: The Boston Celtics and Charlotte Hornets have worked on a sign-and-trade for Gordon Hayward that would land the Celtics a trade exception, but the Hornets have first been trying to find a third team for Nicolas Batum's $27 million contract to see if there's a way to avoid waiving-and-stretching his money, sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski. Hayward remains headed to Charlotte on a four-year, $120 million contract.

[HoopKing20]

21 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

This was just posted on ESPN

Does this mean that Haywood is going back to Boston?  I'm not into how the trade rules work in the NBA?

11:02 a.m. ET: The Boston Celtics and Charlotte Hornets have worked on a sign-and-trade for Gordon Hayward that would land the Celtics a trade exception, but the Hornets have first been trying to find a third team for Nicolas Batum's $27 million contract to see if there's a way to avoid waiving-and-stretching his money, sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski. Hayward remains headed to Charlotte on a four-year, $120 million contract.

No, Hayward is coming to the Hornets.

As @keithsmithNBA  has been describing, if Boston can get CHA to take Hayward via S&T, Boston can get a trade exception for Haywards FULL salary. That’s $28M+.  

A trade exception is an exception that will allow a team to trade for a player without sending any salary out in a trade. Trade exceptions are created when a team trades a player to an under-the-cap team and doesn't take an equal amount of salary back in return.

 

 

[DaveThePanther2008]

1 minute ago, HoopKing20 said:

No, Hayward is coming to the Hornets.

As @keithsmithNBA  has been describing, if Boston can get CHA to take Hayward via S&T, Boston can get a trade exception for Haywards FULL salary. That’s $28M+.  

A trade exception is an exception that will allow a team to trade for a player without sending any salary out in a trade. Trade exceptions are created when a team trades a player to an under-the-cap team and doesn't take an equal amount of salary back in return.

 

 

Thanks.  I was about to say.  So the key is Batum.

[HoopKing20]

2 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Thanks.  I was about to say.  So the key is Batum.

Yes, Hornets want a team like OKC to take Batum off their hands.  Might cost a pick or two to make that happen. Definitely holding up the S&T.

[bLACKpANTHER]

3 hours ago, HoopKing20 said:

Yes, Hornets want a team like OKC to take Batum off their hands.  Might cost a pick or two to make that happen. Definitely holding up the S&T.

Boston should have to kick in something right..?

we are really doing this to help them with the TPE.. if anything, they should throw a 1st rounder

OKC gets Boton 1st Rd pick + Batum + 2nd Rd pic from Hornets
CHA get Hayward
BOS gets the TPE

everyone is happy