DJ Moore graded out as the 24th best WR according to PFF

[AU-panther]

10 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

They don’t go into detail they ever do. They all have biases and it shows when grading there favored players. They have held a grudge against guys like Josh Allen, Cam now Herbert cause they don’t fit the mold they labeled them when giving out draft grades.

 

ive known of pfff way before they became mainstream, they had a bunch bleacher report guys working for them for free, and all those guys all held biases and were fans of teams and certain players.

and my team is the only one that ever gets called for holding.  Every fan thinks their team is the one getting biased against.

They have no reason to have biases and in reality it would be totally contrary to their goals as a money making business.  Will be there be subjectivity involved with human beings, of course, but here again overall it is minimized.

Using Josh Allen as an example makes you look bad, look up their grade on him, also they thought higher of Cam this year than most outlets.  Also their Herbert grade is pretty high.

 

 

 

[GoobyPls]

6 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I don't have access to play by play grades but yes PFF tries to isolate the player.  I would guess both plays would be a positive score, and I don't know about this particular instance but they do give a higher grade based on difficultly and context.  So they are in fact factoring in the things you are referencing.  Are they perfect with it, no,  but its still better than traditional ranking metrics.  

But earlier I did say that WR is probably the hardest position to totally separate from their teammates from an evaluation standpoint and QB is the reason for this, but what is the better option?

Does total yards give us a better ranking? No, PFF actually accounts for the very thing you are saying better than most ranking tools we have.

You are quick to talk about how the "eye test" is better but in reality PFF is the closest thing to a uniformly, thoroughly applied eye test as we have.  The irony is a lot of the  complaints you have with traditional stats are addressed with PFF

Here again what ranking system out there doesn't the best job of ranking all of the WRs or any player for that matter?

 

 

 

 

You just said earlier PFF grades differently wether the receiver is actually targeted.... so no the grading system is not fair when equating who is throwing who the ball. 
 

From the play I just posted, Adams with a perfect throw gets 58 yards, DJ with a perfect throw scores a TD, so how exactly is that graded???? How is Adams getting a higher grade for that when DJ got more separation and had to make a tougher grab? 
 

I can post multiple actual stills/film of DJ getting open and Teddy either not throwing him the ball or the ball getting severely under thrown, while getting more separation than Adams. Your just going by what pff says and posting zero evidence. Now your even starting the doubt the grades cause “it’s hard to grade wide receivers” 

 

If you understand the game of football and know what you are watching you don’t need pff when evaluating your own team and the players you are watching. I’ve watched more panthers than anybody in pff, most people in here have watched more panthers game/film than anyone at pff. It’s wether or not you can be honest when accessing other players.

ive watched Adams play outside of route running what does he go better than DJ? He’s not faster, he’s not stronger, he doesn’t have better ball skills, he sure a hell is not even close to him in YAC, he’s not a better deep threat.

 

 

[top dawg]

And yet, NGS, Football Outsiders and PFF consider Adams second to none, with PFF and Football Outsiders ranking Moore about the same give or take four spots. I'd bet that if we could see a rank by NGS, they'd probably have Moore I'm the same area! Hell, even if you just run down receivers in your mind on each team, DJ would likely be around 20 to 25 in reference to route running and hands (and I haven't even mentioned efficiency and productivity).

Stop being a homer. D.J. is a good receiver, but he's going to have to step his game up to be considered part of the cream of the crop. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by top dawg

[GoobyPls]

4 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

and my team is the only one that ever gets called for holding.  Every fan thinks their team is the one getting biased against.

They have no reason to have biases and in reality it would be totally contrary to their goals as a money making business.  Will be there be subjectivity involved with human beings, of course, but here again overall it is minimized.

Using Josh Allen as an example makes you look bad, look up their grade on him, also they thought higher of Cam this year than most outlets.  Also their Herbert grade is pretty high.

 

 

 

Yes they do and everyone who isn’t blind can see that.

Heres a well researched article about Allen and the bias the analytics community (mainly pff) has against him

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/11/25/21583324/opinion-a-quarterback-metric-amalgamation-for-your-consideration-when-evaluating-josh-allen

In 2018 pre injury Cam, they were calling him a system QB, dead serious. They say his numbers were inflated cause of Norv’s system, the same system that got him fired from his previous 3 jobs.

 

And now with Herbert they have him rated low on numerous weeks cause of something something sustainable or he’s not a dink and dunk QB like Burrow.

They also seem to love Brady, when the majority of this season he wasn’t as good as his numbers indicate they still had him graded super high.

Chris Simms who track record is infinitely betters than pff makes video ranking players if you want someone who watches a ton of film.

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, top dawg said:

And yet, NGS, Football Outsiders and PFF consider Adams second to none, with PFF and Football Outsiders ranking Moore about the same give or take four spots. I'd bet that if we could see a rank by NGS, they'd probably have Moore I'm the same area! Hell, even if you just run down receivers in your mind on each team, DJ would likely be around 20 to 25 in reference to route running, hands and strength!

Stop being a homer. D.J. is a good receiver, but he's going to have to step his game up to be considered part of the cream of the crop. 

9th in receiving yardage last year. 11th this year. Meanwhile, who were his QBs?

Most of the guys above him on the list have QBs like Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, Wilson, etc. Honestly, Allen Robinson is the only guy above him who also played in an offense with a subpar QB situation.

[Untouchable]

31 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

From the play I just posted, Adams with a perfect throw gets 58 yards, DJ with a perfect throw scores a TD, so how exactly is that graded???? How is Adams getting a higher grade for that when DJ got more separation and had to make a tougher grab? 

His release

[top dawg]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

9th in receiving yardage last year. 11th this year. Meanwhile, who were his QBs?

Most of the guys above him on the list have QBs like Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, Wilson, etc. Honestly, Allen Robinson is the only guy above him who also played in an offense with a subpar QB situation.

I know that, but (not trying to be a homer) you also have to take into account our guys as well. We had a very good receiving corps this year. Sure they take some targets away, but they also took pressure away. Does DJ really have the game to carry the receiving corps like Adams did? Does he have the nuanced moves like even rookie Justin Jefferson? Come on, man! D.J. is going to have to raise it a level! In my opinion, even someone like Samuel seems to play with more of a "killer" attitude, sense of urgency, and appears to be a more polished route runner! Mind you, I'm not saying that DJ isn't a very good receiver, but he's going to have to step up his game to be ranked higher.

[AU-panther]

25 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

You just said earlier PFF grades differently wether the receiver is actually targeted.... so no the grading system is not fair when equating who is throwing who the ball. 
 

From the play I just posted, Adams with a perfect throw gets 58 yards, DJ with a perfect throw scores a TD, so how exactly is that graded???? How is Adams getting a higher grade for that when DJ got more separation and had to make a tougher grab? 
 

I can post multiple actual stills/film of DJ getting open and Teddy either not throwing him the ball or the ball getting severely under thrown, while getting more separation than Adams. Your just going by what pff says and posting zero evidence. Now your even starting the doubt the grades cause “it’s hard to grade wide receivers” 

 

If you understand the game of football and know what you are watching you don’t need pff when evaluating your own team and the players you are watching. I’ve watched more panthers than anybody in pff, most people in here have watched more panthers game/film than anyone at pff. It’s wether or not you can be honest when accessing other players.

ive watched Adams play outside of route running what does he go better than DJ? He’s not faster, he’s not stronger, he doesn’t have better ball skills, he sure a hell is not even close to him in YAC, he’s not a better deep threat.

 

 

I have no doubts you can grade your own team, its the time of watching every team.  You might think your player is good or bad but in reality good and bad are relative terms and without watching everyone else you don't have that context.  You might think your LT is garbage but if you watch them all you realize he is better than 70%, under that scenario he really isn't as bad as you thought.

I never said their system was perfect, i said its the best we have when trying to grade everyone relative to each other.  So lets say Moore gets a grade of +1 for being open.  Maybe Teddy tries the throw and Moore makes an unbelievable catch and run after catch and it would have been a +2.  So yes the QB will have some affect on the grade, and that is what i was referencing earlier, but here again what do we have that is a better overall grading system.

How about this:

You watch film of every receiver, on every play, of every game.  On each play you assign a grade of +2 to -2 based on how well the receiver does independent of everyone else.  Then rank all of the receivers based on those grades.  Now do that for every position.  Put those rankings on a website and then i won't have to pay for PFF.  Honestly I think you are probably a pretty good judge of what you see.  The irony is that your rankings would probably end up being really similar to PFFs.  

What you are trying to do with your evaluation is actually what PFF is trying to accomplish in ways no other ranking system has.

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, top dawg said:

I know that, but (not trying to be a homer) you also have to take into account our guys as well. We had a very good receiving corps this year. Sure they take some targets away, but they also took pressure away. Does DJ really have the game to carry the receiving corps like Adams did? Does he have the nuanced moves like even rookie Justin Jefferson? Come on, man! D.J. is going to have to raise it a level! In my opinion, even someone like Samuel seems to play with more of a "killer" attitude, sense of urgency, and appears to be a more polished route runner! Mind you, I'm not saying that DJ isn't a very good receiver, but he's going to have to step up his game to be ranked higher.

Yeah, DJ has room to improve. That's why I'm not arguing that he's top 5. He's not on Adams' level yet. Adams is arguable the best in the league. DJ isn't in that conversation yet.

[shaqattaq]

Holy Poo!! Sterling Shepard was 23, WTF?!? I call BS on ant critique that says Shepard is better than DJ.

 

In fairness, I do like their write up, it sounds like a top 10 receiver (especially considering that the other 2 receivers on the team had > 100 yards from LOS):

 "Moore notched 11 receptions that resulted in 30 or more yards this season, just one behind the league leader (D.K. Metcalf). Even with Teddy Bridgewater at quarterback, Moore was still able to tie for fifth in total deep receptions with 12. Seven of those 12 were contested deep grabs, the most in the entire NFL."

[GoobyPls]

21 hours ago, AU-panther said:

I have no doubts you can grade your own team, its the time of watching every team.  You might think your player is good or bad but in reality good and bad are relative terms and without watching everyone else you don't have that context.  You might think your LT is garbage but if you watch them all you realize he is better than 70%, under that scenario he really isn't as bad as you thought.

I never said their system was perfect, i said its the best we have when trying to grade everyone relative to each other.  So lets say Moore gets a grade of +1 for being open.  Maybe Teddy tries the throw and Moore makes an unbelievable catch and run after catch and it would have been a +2.  So yes the QB will have some affect on the grade, and that is what i was referencing earlier, but here again what do we have that is a better overall grading system.

How about this:

You watch film of every receiver, on every play, of every game.  On each play you assign a grade of +2 to -2 based on how well the receiver does independent of everyone else.  Then rank all of the receivers based on those grades.  Now do that for every position.  Put those rankings on a website and then i won't have to pay for PFF.  Honestly I think you are probably a pretty good judge of what you see.  The irony is that your rankings would probably end up being really similar to PFFs.  

What you are trying to do with your evaluation is actually what PFF is trying to accomplish in ways no other ranking system has.

The problem it’s not even close to perfect, they have 23 WR ahead of Moore, and I’m willing to bet it has more to do with QB play than anything else. These guys are not watching the film more than once like most panthers fan are. 
 

Like I said above outside of route running what is Adams better at? I can go play for play and I’m willing to be Moore tape is way more impressive, and Adams can’t replicate those Moore plays.

[top dawg]

28 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

The problem it’s not even close to perfect, they have 23 WR ahead of Moore, and I’m willing to bet it has more to do with QB play than anything else. These guys are not watching the film more than once like most panthers fan are. 
 

Like I said above outside of route running what is Adams better at? I can go play for play and I’m willing to be Moore tape is way more impressive, and Adams can’t replicate those Moore plays.

LOL. You know more than the people who do this for a business now. Unbelievable!

[GoobyPls]

48 minutes ago, top dawg said:

LOL. You know more than the people who do this for a business now. Unbelievable!

 I know for a fact I do.

[top dawg]

6 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

 I know for a fact I do.

Yeah, I remember when you were dogging CMC out before we drafted him. We went back and forth over CMC and Dalvin Cook. You didn't know more than the professionals then.