What to make of Gross-Matos

[Basbear]

18 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah but what do you mean "become a legit NFL end?" That seems pretty subjective. By that definition, why wouldn't being a full time starter in year two be a "legit NFL end?"

I am not preaching anti-patience. I was just confused why you used Hardy as an example as not being...."legit" until year three. The biggest thing that changed in year 3 was double digit sacks production.

I agree, most rookies aren't going to be impact players initially. Sometimes starting as a rookie may even say more about your team than the player. Look at Troy Pride Jr. He probably had no business getting the PT he did but our secondary was pretty thin. So, even then there is a little nuance to each situation. I don't think there are hard rules about which position will mature at what rate.

I truly dont have a legit end list of checks. I said before in one of the quotes- starts dont matter for DL(personally). One on the list for "legit" is not wanting to remove them form the field. Just took hardy three years before his impact was felt by everyone; coaches, opponents, fans etc. Three years is normal amount for a player to become a pro. RB, LB, WR(new to the list), and ST can make a impact year one form all rounds-UDFAs. QB like WRs have changed to where they also could be with RB and LB. 

Another layer is even free agents that are vets, most take one year as well. 

[kungfoodude]

44 minutes ago, Basbear said:

I truly dont have a legit end list of checks. I said before in one of the quotes- starts dont matter for DL(personally). One on the list for "legit" is not wanting to remove them form the field. Just took hardy three years before his impact was felt by everyone; coaches, opponents, fans etc. Three years is normal amount for a player to become a pro. RB, LB, WR(new to the list), and ST can make a impact year one form all rounds-UDFAs. QB like WRs have changed to where they also could be with RB and LB. 

Another layer is even free agents that are vets, most take one year as well. 

Yeah, it just kind of seems like your criteria is rather subjective. Not sure I would generally agree but it's hard to refute your opinion when there isn't much to actually refute. 

Agree to disagree on some of it.

[Icege]

Went back and watched all of Yetur's snaps from his first (vs LV), sixth (vs TB), and final (vs NO) games of his rookie season to try and see how he had progressed.

He... did not look good.

Cons

• Was regularly one of the last DL to come out of his stance. Almost no burst. This was consistent in all three games that I went back and watched. Bravvion Roy was firing off of the ball faster than YGM on a regular basis.
• Regularly lost contain or would over pursue upfield rather than setting the edge. He was single handedly responsible for 34yds against the Raiders when he failed to set the edge. The 98yd TD run vs. TB? Yetur failed to slide into the B gap and instead try to beat the OT to the outside (which was a common theme) and as a result a massive hole for Jones to run thru appeared. Rather stacking and shedding the blocker, YGM would just try to pick a side (again, usually the outside), and go that way where he'd easily be washed out of the play.
• Was knocked to the ground frequently.
• Inactive hands. Was regularly allowing OL to get into his chest and redirect at will.

Pros

• Never stopped hustling. Even when knocked to the ground, he was fighting his way back to his feet.
• Only 23, so he has time to grow and develop as a player. Most DEs take 3 - 5yrs (peaking at ~25yrs old) to develop unless they're something special. 

Going back and looking at his scouting profile, a lot of this seems to check out with the pre-draft analysis of YGM:

Quote

Strengths

• Prototypical combination of size, athleticism and agility
• Loose hips with short-area athleticism of a linebacker
• Breaks down and plays under control in the backfield
• Posted 35 tackles for loss and 17.5 sacks as two-year starter
• Rangy chaser down the line of scrimmage
• Quick cross-face stunts to disrupt the gaps
• Easily crow-hops over cut block attempts
• Adequate upfield rush burst
• Has some hip flip to trim the edge
• Shows bull rush then and hits switch to inside counter
• Active to reignite secondary rush
• Twists are fluid and fast
• Good job of working back under tackles at top of the rush

Weaknesses

• Hands need to be quicker and more violent as a pro
• Mistimes punch, allowing blockers into frame
• Average controlling point of attack against power
• Can do a better job with play-side contain duties
• Takes time to disengage when reached
• Pad level raises, slowing burst to the top of the rush
• Would like to see more urgent speed-to-power charges
• Rush isn't built upon explosive movements or power
• Could use a little more finesse to access the edges

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Icege

[Basbear]

14 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, it just kind of seems like your criteria is rather subjective. Not sure I would generally agree but it's hard to refute your opinion when there isn't much to actually refute. 

Agree to disagree on some of it.

Yes I dont have a check list and not going to "makeup" one(Id need to think long and hard, take months). Case by Case, but 3 years gos along with many spots. Starts as you now can give confusion. Everyone here hated (except me when he was a RT)Byron Bell and he got starts. Fua and McClain started their rookies years, but were AWFUL, but they where the best option at the time....thanks herniay. I think that group gave up 5.2 per carry that season, nearly as bad as the 2019 rushing stats. I mean Hardy/CJohnson were totally different players form their 3rd year to the 2nd. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Basbear

[Basbear]

6 minutes ago, Icege said:

Went back and watched all of Yetur's snaps from his first (vs LV), sixth (vs TB), and final (vs NO) games of his rookie season to try and see how he had progressed.

He... did not look good.

Cons

• Was regularly one of the last DL to come out of his stance. Almost no burst. This was consistent in all three games that I went back and watched. Bravvion Roy was firing off of the ball faster than YGM on a regular basis.
• Regularly lost contain or would over pursue upfield rather than setting the edge. He was single handedly responsible for 34yds against the Raiders when he failed to set the edge. The 98yd TD run vs. TB? Yetur failed to slide into the B gap and instead try to beat the OT to the outside (which was a common theme) and as a result a massive hole for Jones to run thru appeared. Rather stacking and shedding the blocker, YGM would just try to pick a side (again, usually the outside), and go that way where he'd easily be washed out of the play.
• Was knocked to the ground frequently.
• Inactive hands. Was regularly allowing OL to get into his chest and redirect at will.

Pros

• Never stopped hustling. Even when knocked to the ground, he was fighting his way back to his feet.
• Only 23, so he has time to grow and develop as a player. Most DEs take 3 - 5yrs (peaking at ~25yrs old) to develop unless they're something special. 

Going back and looking at his scouting profile, a lot of this seems to check out with the pre-draft analysis of YGM:

 

Not giving him a excuse, but he had a injury and came back early. I already forgot what it was, but think it was a 6 week deal and he cut it short. He could still lift some and added 5 lbs during the rehab. I think it ach tendon or planter fifahfuihufinbfiunainfa. 

[Mr. Scot]

Seriously though, I think some folks might have overrated Gross-Matos a little bit last year. Not that he's bad or anything, but he hasn't necessarily shown himself to be anything special just yet.

[Basbear]

The killer High ankle was his injury. I will say this too- like most young bucks hes immature....more than others..... according to DL coach.

 https://www.panthers.com/news/panthers-designate-yetur-gross-matos-to-return-from-reserve-injured-list

 

Quote

The Panthers on Thursday designated defensive end Yetur Gross-Matos to return from the reserve/injured list.

Gross-Matos has missed Carolina's last three games after suffering a high ankle sprain against the Falcons in Week 5. He now has a 21-day window to practice before the Panthers must activate him to the 53-man roster or place him on season-ending IR. Gross-Matos may be placed on the active roster at any point during those 21 days.

Came back too soon as well, but the season was stinker....

[Clicheking]

Earlier in camp Rhule talked about some players starting out of necessity last year, because we didn't have the pieces in terms of depth. YGM was likely one of them, nothing wrong with that

Edited August 11, 2021 by Clicheking

[Icege]

45 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Not giving him a excuse, but he had a injury and came back early. I already forgot what it was, but think it was a 6 week deal and he cut it short. He could still lift some and added 5 lbs during the rehab. I think it ach tendon or planter fifahfuihufinbfiunainfa. 

The ankle injury had a minimum impact when we look at his snap counts and how they grew towards the end of the year once Weatherly was shut down.

Week		Opp	Num	Pct
1		LVR	16	25%
2	@	TAM	Inac	Inac
3	@	LAC	24	31%
4		ARI	21	37%
5	@	ATL	17	26%
6		CHI	Inju	Inju
7	@	NOR	Inju	Inju
8		ATL	Inju	Inju
9	@	KAN	13	21%
10		TAM	46	58%
11		DET	27	48%
12	@	MIN	41	56%
14		DEN	42	69%
15	@	GNB	52	84%
16	@	WAS	37	52%
17		NOR	41	64%

In addition to that, he consistently showed the issues I mentioned throughout the season that don't have anything to do with the ankle (choosing to almost always go on the outside, failure to stack and shed, stagnant hands, consistently the last DL to come out of his stance, etc)

Edited August 11, 2021 by Icege

[Basbear]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

The ankle injury had a minimum impact when we look at his snap counts and how they grew towards the end of the year once Weatherly was shut down.

Week		Opp	Num	Pct
1		LVR	16	25%
2	@	TAM	Inac	Inac
3	@	LAC	24	31%
4		ARI	21	37%
5	@	ATL	17	26%
6		CHI	Inju	Inju
7	@	NOR	Inju	Inju
8		ATL	Inju	Inju
9	@	KAN	13	21%
10		TAM	46	58%
11		DET	27	48%
12	@	MIN	41	56%
14		DEN	42	69%
15	@	GNB	52	84%
16	@	WAS	37	52%
17		NOR	41	64%

In addition to that, he consistently showed the issues I mentioned throughout the season that don't have anything to do with the ankle (choosing to almost always go on the outside, failure to stack and shed, stagnant hands, consistently the last DL to come out of his stance, etc)

You have the fresh look, I remember a rookie that showed flash in spots. ive traded in my cable box, so no chance to to re-watch all the games, nor do I want too.... I'll take your viewpoint with belief. I still hold he will be a better rucker tho....but I still was in Greg Little's corner til mid-season last year as well... 

[Jon Snow]

31 minutes ago, Clicheking said:

Earlier in camp Rhule talked about some players starting out of necessity last year, because we didn't have the pieces in terms of depth. YGM was likely one of them, nothing wrong with that

This^

[Icege]

3 hours ago, Basbear said:

You have the fresh look, I remember a rookie that showed flash in spots. ive traded in my cable box, so no chance to to re-watch all the games, nor do I want too.... I'll take your viewpoint with belief. I still hold he will be a better rucker tho....but I still was in Greg Little's corner til mid-season last year as well... 

Oh he definitely flashed, esp in the TB game.

Vs TB made an inside move on the LT that forced Brady to spin out and overthrow Gronk for what would've been a TD. He also knifed thru the line with the ball on the 1 to stop the RB for a loss. He also had another TFL earlier in the game where he was able to get around the OT from the outside and stuff the RB.

His motor seems to always be going, so he's got the tools. Just needs the technique and tactics.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Icege