John Ellis on Stroud v Young

[frankw]

If Stroud has a Teddy Bridgewater build then Young has a Johnny Football build.

If we're gonna talk poo we're gonna talk poo

[frankw]

Anthony Richardson it is

[stan786]

2 minutes ago, frankw said:

If Stroud has a Teddy Bridgewater build then Young has a Johnny Football build.

If we're gonna talk poo we're gonna talk poo

Lmao, I actually agree, may be giving Bryce too much credit here.

[Wes21]

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

The TD pass you pointed out: from the endzone view it looks like the receiver you highlight was read #3 after the other two guys on the left. The argument could be made he should have been able to identify that look pre-snap, but he was still able to buy time in the pocket, keep his head downfield and throw a TD.

You are basically saying he didn't bother looking at read #3 and just locked onto his 1st or 2nd read.  Then he scrambled around until he could get the ball to his 1st or 2nd read.  That's not a good thing.  And certainly not good for a guy who people claim is an other wordly processor of information.

I can excuse it if it was a one off.  But its all over his film.  That's the problem.

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

CJ is a rhythm thrower in part because he has the superior supporting cast and his offensive scheme is incredibly QB Friendly so it allows him to be in rhythm all game long. The Georgia game showed that he can throw off schedule and excel at it when given the chance, but was that a flash in the pan?

I doubted CJ as well.  I only bothered going back to the film because we traded up to the #1 pick.  I found out a few things.  One, I found that he is still growing and evolving as a QB.  So some of my initial criticisms have ironed out over time.  But secondly, I found the kind of film you want to see from a guy that has question marks about working out of rhythm and out of structure and always throwing to wide open guys.  The film is there with him working out of rhythm.  There is just less of it.  But its there.  So as I go thru the film and see the progression, to me the Georgia game was just an extension of what he had already shown and what he was growing to become.  He was just forced to do alot of it that game due to the defense he was playing.

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Bryce Young has shown the playmaking "IT" Factor on more than one occasion. His tape is filled with it. It's why I'd be thrilled if we drafted him. You can find 1 or 2 plays per game from both CJ and Bryce where they make the wrong read or just flat out miss someone.

I liked Bryce until I watched the film.  It sounds great that he's a playmaker.  But its problematic when the guy is not seeing the field and not hitting the open receivers like he should.  He's turning down too many throws to run around and play hero ball.  I am reminded of a play from Anthony Richardson in the 2021 season that his coach commented on.  At first blush people were excited about it because the line didn't block for poo, noone one was open and AR made a great play to make something out of it and get 20+ yards on a run.  After the game when asked about it the coach said something to the effect of "you guys get excited about those plays, I don't.  He missed the protection call and that's why the pass rush was in his face.  Then he missed the hot AND the primary on the same play.  Then he took off running and you guys think its great.  He's got alot to learn."  That's how I see Bryce right now.  Part of his spectacular plays are because he's missing reads.  I don't cherry pick every single play.  I understand that if we are not in the QB room, we don't have the full story of what was actually going on.  But what I am seeing on film is eye opening.

[gmonjimbo]

2 hours ago, Wes21 said:

You are basically saying he didn't bother looking at read #3 and just locked onto his 1st or 2nd read.  Then he scrambled around until he could get the ball to his 1st or 2nd read.  That's not a good thing.  And certainly not good for a guy who people claim is an other wordly processor of information.

I can excuse it if it was a one off.  But its all over his film.  That's the problem.

I doubted CJ as well.  I only bothered going back to the film because we traded up to the #1 pick.  I found out a few things.  One, I found that he is still growing and evolving as a QB.  So some of my initial criticisms have ironed out over time.  But secondly, I found the kind of film you want to see from a guy that has question marks about working out of rhythm and out of structure and always throwing to wide open guys.  The film is there with him working out of rhythm.  There is just less of it.  But its there.  So as I go thru the film and see the progression, to me the Georgia game was just an extension of what he had already shown and what he was growing to become.  He was just forced to do alot of it that game due to the defense he was playing.

I liked Bryce until I watched the film.  It sounds great that he's a playmaker.  But its problematic when the guy is not seeing the field and not hitting the open receivers like he should.  He's turning down too many throws to run around and play hero ball.  I am reminded of a play from Anthony Richardson in the 2021 season that his coach commented on.  At first blush people were excited about it because the line didn't block for poo, noone one was open and AR made a great play to make something out of it and get 20+ yards on a run.  After the game when asked about it the coach said something to the effect of "you guys get excited about those plays, I don't.  He missed the protection call and that's why the pass rush was in his face.  Then he missed the hot AND the primary on the same play.  Then he took off running and you guys think its great.  He's got alot to learn."  That's how I see Bryce right now.  Part of his spectacular plays are because he's missing reads.  I don't cherry pick every single play.  I understand that if we are not in the QB room, we don't have the full story of what was actually going on.  But what I am seeing on film is eye opening.

I respect your opinion and the time you spent looking at Young's film. What gives me cause to pause on your analysis is multiple scouting reports that say he can see the whole field and Nick Saban saying Bryce was like an extra coach on their staff, then contrast it with your input that he doesn't see the field and doesn't know where his receivers should be. Maybe you have the smoking gun 

Also, for Stroud call me dubious in thinking after 79 total rush attempts in 2 years of college and a traditional pocket passer approach to the game he will use his mobility more inside and outside the pocket. What tends to happen in the NFL, is that a QB moves less.

To give context Mahomes, Burrow, Josh Allen, and Trevor Lawerence had about 70+ rush attempts in their final seasons as collegiate athletes. 

I think Stroud's comparison and mobility fit more into Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Derek Carr, and Kirk Cousin molds.  Those are pro-bowl-level QBs with great accuracy. 

[mrcompletely11]

7 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I respect your opinion and the time you spent looking at Young's film. What gives me cause to pause on your analysis is multiple scouting reports that say he can see the whole field and Nick Saban saying Bryce was like an extra coach on their staff, then contrast it with your input that he doesn't see the field and doesn't know where his receivers should be. Maybe you have the smoking gun 

Also, for Stroud call me dubious in thinking after 79 total rush attempts in 2 years of college and a traditional pocket passer approach to the game he will use his mobility more inside and outside the pocket. What tends to happen in the NFL, is that a QB moves less.

To give context Mahomes, Burrow, Josh Allen, and Trevor Lawerence had about 70+ rush attempts in their final seasons as collegiate athletes. 

I think Stroud's comparison and mobility fit more into Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Derek Carr, and Kirk Cousin molds.  Those are pro-bowl-level QBs with great accuracy. 

I think you probably should have looked at youngs rushing stats before you knock strouds

Edited March 29, 2023 by mrcompletely11

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I think you probably should have looked at youngs rushing stats before you knock strouds

I also don't think you want Young running the ball very much in the NFL.  I don't think he needs to, but that would be playing with fire considering his size...

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I also don't think you want Young running the ball very much in the NFL.  I don't think he needs to, but that would be playing with fire considering his size...

exactly

[Ricky Spanish]

3 hours ago, Wes21 said:

You are basically saying he didn't bother looking at read #3 and just locked onto his 1st or 2nd read.  Then he scrambled around until he could get the ball to his 1st or 2nd read.  That's not a good thing.  And certainly not good for a guy who people claim is an other wordly processor of information.

I can excuse it if it was a one off.  But its all over his film.  That's the problem.

I doubted CJ as well.  I only bothered going back to the film because we traded up to the #1 pick.  I found out a few things.  One, I found that he is still growing and evolving as a QB.  So some of my initial criticisms have ironed out over time.  But secondly, I found the kind of film you want to see from a guy that has question marks about working out of rhythm and out of structure and always throwing to wide open guys.  The film is there with him working out of rhythm.  There is just less of it.  But its there.  So as I go thru the film and see the progression, to me the Georgia game was just an extension of what he had already shown and what he was growing to become.  He was just forced to do alot of it that game due to the defense he was playing.

I liked Bryce until I watched the film.  It sounds great that he's a playmaker.  But its problematic when the guy is not seeing the field and not hitting the open receivers like he should.  He's turning down too many throws to run around and play hero ball.  I am reminded of a play from Anthony Richardson in the 2021 season that his coach commented on.  At first blush people were excited about it because the line didn't block for poo, noone one was open and AR made a great play to make something out of it and get 20+ yards on a run.  After the game when asked about it the coach said something to the effect of "you guys get excited about those plays, I don't.  He missed the protection call and that's why the pass rush was in his face.  Then he missed the hot AND the primary on the same play.  Then he took off running and you guys think its great.  He's got alot to learn."  That's how I see Bryce right now.  Part of his spectacular plays are because he's missing reads.  I don't cherry pick every single play.  I understand that if we are not in the QB room, we don't have the full story of what was actually going on.  But what I am seeing on film is eye opening.

One thing about Stroud's tape that is INCREDIBLY encouraging is that he grew as the season went on. Throws/concepts he missed on early in the year he was able to recognize and take advantage of later in the season. That makes me think he has the capacity to grow in the NFL as well, and that his own processor is plenty fast in it's own right. 

Again, I'm happy with either. 

[Wes21]

33 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I respect your opinion and the time you spent looking at Young's film. What gives me cause to pause on your analysis is multiple scouting reports that say he can see the whole field and Nick Saban saying Bryce was like an extra coach on their staff, then contrast it with your input that he doesn't see the field and doesn't know where his receivers should be. Maybe you have the smoking gun

So Nick Saban is going to tell me this guy isn't open, and Bryce should try to run for the first down?  I didn't realize Bryce was just a victim of bad coaching, and that's how Nick told him to play football.  But hey, it was a nice run!

[Wes21]

1 minute ago, Ricky Spanish said:

One thing about Stroud's tape that is INCREDIBLY encouraging is that he grew as the season went on. Throws/concepts he missed on early in the year he was able to recognize and take advantage of later in the season. That makes me think he has the capacity to grow in the NFL as well, and that his own processor is plenty fast in it's own right. 

Again, I'm happy with either. 

I am not happy with Bryce and I am eager to see him play for someone else.  However, I will say that Anthony Richardson's tape progresses thru the year as well.  What I see on film early starts to iron out as the year progresses.  Heck, in the Tennessee game he seemed to iron some stuff out during the game.

After spending some time watching Bryce and realizing he's not all he's cracked up to be, I'd rather have AR if that's the kind of QB we want.  I feel like if Bryce were 6'-3" people would spend more time critiquing is actual game and see some of the issues.  But since he has that one huge flaw its all anyone wants to talk about.

[gmonjimbo]

35 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I think you probably should have looked at youngs rushing stats before you knock strouds

I did. He had 81 his sophomore year and 49 his final year (also he missed one game and majority of the first game he injured his AC joint). My point isn't based solely on rushing attempts or designed runs. Its more of mobility within and outside the pocket whether it's throwing on the run, running for a first down, extending a play, etc. Any game footage of Young one can see he uses his mobility within and outside the pocket a lot. 

The topic at hand is Stroud's playing style more of one game against Georiga or the 24 other games he played at Ohio State. I lean towards the latter which is a traditional pocket passer that may occasionally use his legs for first downs and extend plays but is not part of his repertoire.

Therefore, I see him in the mold of the aforementioned QBs. 

[mrcompletely11]

8 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I did. He had 81 his sophomore year and 49 his final year (also he missed one game and majority of the first game he injured his AC joint). My point isn't based solely on rushing attempts or designed runs. Its more of mobility within and outside the pocket whether it's throwing on the run, running for a first down, extending a play, etc. Any game footage of Young one can see he uses his mobility within and outside the pocket a lot. 

The topic at hand is Stroud's playing style more of one game against Georiga or the 24 other games he played at Ohio State. I lean towards the latter which is a traditional pocket passer that may occasionally use his legs for first downs and extend plays but is not part of his repertoire.

Therefore, I see him in the mold of the aforementioned QBs. 

Um bro, of those 81 attempts it was for a grand total of 0 yards.

 

Of the 49 this year he was at 185 3.8 avg.

 

That tells me he is just running around back there .

 

Stroud didnt need to run basically at all but when he had to Georgia/NU he was pretty good at it

[gmonjimbo]

30 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Um bro, of those 81 attempts it was for a grand total of 0 yards.

 

Of the 49 this year he was at 185 3.8 avg.

 

That tells me he is just running around back there .

 

Stroud didn't need to run basically at all but when he had to Georgia/NU he was pretty good at it

I'm not talking about yards or advocating for Bryce Young to run the read option like I assume the team that drafts Anthony Richardson will. 

I'm talking about mobility within and outside the pocket. There isn't necessarily a quantifiable metric that I'm aware of that tracks - extended plays, rush attempts, or throws on the run into one number for QBs. So I used rush attempts. The idea is that college QB tends to move even less when they enter the NFL - which is understandable. 

The only QB I can think of that moves more in the NFL than they did in College is Justin Fields - who ran an unofficial 4.44 at his pro day.