Where would the Panthers be if they sat Bryce Young last season?

[strato]

1 hour ago, mountainpantherfan2 said:

There are a lot of moving parts to this type of questions and way too many variables to consider to really predict how the outcome would have been any different in 2023 with Dalton starting more than just one game.  But instead of focusing on that Seattle game, another game, and the game following it, are more intriguing to me.  

Week 16 vs Green Bay.  Young had the best game of his rookie season.  23/36 (64%) for 312 with 2 TD and no INT.  Thielen (6/94), Chark (6/98) and Tremble (4/59) all had huge plays in the passing game.

The running game was a different story.  Hubbard (16/43) and Sanders (3/3) combined for just 46 yards rushing.  Mays was starting at LG and Jensen at RG.  The offensive line was able to protect Young just enough to keep the Panthers in the game until the very end.  But this wasn't because they were playing at a high level, rather the Packers defense played horrible this game. But this horrible defensive effort by the Packers allowed us to see what could be possible if Young had time to process and throw.

Fast forward to Week 17 vs Jacksonville.  The offense was shut out and the offensive line allowed 6 sacks and 8 more QH's.  

If you go back and watch these games back to back, the line play if very noticeable.  When Young had time in process and move, he was spot on.  When the line collapsed, like most QBs, he was ineffective.

When you draft a QB 1st overall in the draft, especially if you trade up to do so, you hope to get a QB that can make plays despite the struggles around him.  Think Newton his rookie year.  Should the Panthers have traded up in the 2023 draft to the 1st overall and should they have drafted Young at that spot? My opinion is no to the first question and no QB in 2023 was worth trading up to take in the top 10.  Neither Stroud, Richardson or Levis would have been worth it.  

But none of them would have fared any better than Young either with the Panthers, in my opinion.  Stroud had a good season in Houston but he didn't have a Cam Newton or Lamar Jackson season.  He needed slightly above average talent in one of the worst divisions to make the playoffs. He had the season we were hoping for in Carolina but wasn't going to get with Young or Stroud.

Now, I'm not trying to put Young up on a pedestal here.  There are a lot of questions that still surround him and his ability to be QB1 on the Panthers in the future.  But the issue last year wasn't just the play at the QB position.  And really, I don't think the WR issues were as much as people make them out to be.  The real issue on this offense was the line and the running game.  If your line can't get a push to run the ball or pass block to pass the ball, you have no offense.  

Start Young. Start Dalton.  Draft Stroud, Richardson or Levis.  Kidnap Mahomes.  Doesn't matter, I think the end result would have been the same. 

All I have to say to this really, is it sounds nice and downgrades Stroud to make Young look better is more like what this take does.

Look at the WR numbers the year before and then the year with Stroud. He made them better, not the other way around.

That’s my opinion. I appreciate you designating that it was yours. Many state these things as facts.

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, strato said:

All I have to say to this really, is it sounds nice and downgrades Stroud to make Young look better is more like what this take does.

Look at the WR numbers the year before and then the year with Stroud. He made them better, not the other way around.

That’s my opinion. I appreciate you designating that it was yours. Many state these things as facts.

I mean, poster also said Young or Mahomes, it would have made no difference. 

If there was way to actually test that hypothetical, I would sell every belonging I have and wager that Mahomes would indeed yield different results. 

Mahomes automatically changes the D coverages.  He automatically changes the threats.  He attacks and threatens a field different vastly different.   We have seen good QBs and great QBs play behind horrific OLs in a single season....and they don't default into being the worst team in the NFL.  Frank Reich was old, stubborn and not creative enough to deal with an anomaly QB like Bryce.  The best QB in the NFL wouldn't be handicapping Frank, they would be enhancing Frank.  Starting week 1, Frank didn't even trust Bryce with basics....Frank gave him I what I feel comfortable with you being able to do offense.  Which took throws and plays off the table because Bryce couldn't do early on what a bad vet in Dalton could. 

Mahomes would not yield the same results. 

[ForJimmy]

Why we gotta bring Mahomes into this??? Yes Mahomes could have won some extra games for us. If you replace our rookie with a HoF possible GOAT QB in his prime, yes he would get more wins… 

[mountainpantherfan2]

33 minutes ago, strato said:

All I have to say to this really, is it sounds nice and downgrades Stroud to make Young look better is more like what this take does.

Look at the WR numbers the year before and then the year with Stroud. He made them better, not the other way around.

That’s my opinion. I appreciate you designating that it was yours. Many state these things as facts.

Just to clarify, Stroud had a very good season and did a lot of things the right way for a rookie.  I wasn't trying to downgrade his accomplishments in 2023 at all.  What I was trying to point out was that Stroud, again in my opinion, didn't showcase a skill set that resembled a player that could elevate over the struggles of the 2023 Panthers offense as a whole.  QB's like Newton or Jackson or Mahomes (that last reference in my post was hyperbole) can and have elevated above their teams weaknesses.  Stroud played good enough and made. those around him better enough to get them to the playoffs in a weak division. 

Of all the reasonable options that could have started for the Panthers at QB in 2023 (Young, Stroud, Richardson, Levis, and Dalton) none seemed to be the type of player that would have succeeded more than Young did with the offensive line and the entire offensive system being as bad as it was.

[KillerKat]

Then we would be on step 1 again of realizing how big of a mistake we made.

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Why we gotta bring Mahomes into this??? Yes Mahomes could have won some extra games for us. If you replace our rookie with a HoF possible GOAT QB in his prime, yes he would get more wins… 

well, the argument was made that from Stroud to Mahomes.....no QB would have done better here.  How you just going to, not say something lol 

[mountainpantherfan2]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

well, the argument was made that from Stroud to Mahomes.....no QB would have done better here.  How you just going to, not say something lol 

@CRA actually, I said kidnap Mahomes.  It was hyperbole.  But if you want to take it literally, I'm still pretty sure Mahomes wouldn't have won any more games for us if the team broke into his home, covered his head with a bag, brought him to Charlotte and then tried to force him to play QB for us in 2023.  Or maybe he does.  Either way, I feel like the line was the bigger issue than the play at QB. 

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, mountainpantherfan2 said:

Just to clarify, Stroud had a very good season and did a lot of things the right way for a rookie.  I wasn't trying to downgrade his accomplishments in 2023 at all.  What I was trying to point out was that Stroud, again in my opinion, didn't showcase a skill set that resembled a player that could elevate over the struggles of the 2023 Panthers offense as a whole.  QB's like Newton or Jackson or Mahomes (that last reference in my post was hyperbole) can and have elevated above their teams weaknesses.  Stroud played good enough and made. those around him better enough to get them to the playoffs in a weak division. 

Of all the reasonable options that could have started for the Panthers at QB in 2023 (Young, Stroud, Richardson, Levis, and Dalton) none seemed to be the type of player that would have succeeded more than Young did with the offensive line and the entire offensive system being as bad as it was.

I think what Bryce specifically does/did....is allows a defense to play defense in a manner they can't and don't vs others. 

and then Bryce just plays into that largely.  

which is going to always bring the convo back to Bryce's physical tools IMO.  Other QBs can threaten the field in scenarios Bryce can't.  They can threaten parts of the field and attack smaller passing windows than Bryce....and more importantly, they can do it in non-ideal scenarios.  Non-ideal scenarios make throws tougher.  Bryce doesn't make/can't make many of those throws and Ds know it.  That's the Bryce issue.  People say but Bryce could.  But they are saying he might could in an ideal scenarios.  He doesn't have the velocity to hit throws to hit tight windows downfield, and specifically when the pocket forces him into a non-ideal scenarios IMO. 

 

[BrisbanePanther]

Just so I have this right...this board keeps wishcasting Dalton's ONE game (a loss while scoring 27) while ignoring Bryce's ONE 300 yard game on 36 passes (also a loss but while scoring 30)? Why not wishcast that one too?

Maybe a better question is what did Bryce do differently in the Green Bay game and how can that be repeated?

Instead it's like mental gymnastics to say that the Green Bay game was a fluke (or ignored overall) and the rest of season was the trend...while Dalton's game would have apparently proven to not have been a fluke if given the chance? Make it make sense.

From now on, IMO any mention of the Seattle game should be balanced with the Green Bay game.

 

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, CRA said:

well, the argument was made that from Stroud to Mahomes.....no QB would have done better here.  How you just going to, not say something lol 

Stroud you could argue was a rookie and would have a shitty staff to learn from with a bad OL and no weapons. He still probably wins more but there is a semi legit argument there. But now we are getting carried away just like the Pro Dalton people got carried away by that Seattle game…

[mrcompletely11]

18 minutes ago, mountainpantherfan2 said:

Just to clarify, Stroud had a very good season and did a lot of things the right way for a rookie.  I wasn't trying to downgrade his accomplishments in 2023 at all.  What I was trying to point out was that Stroud, again in my opinion, didn't showcase a skill set that resembled a player that could elevate over the struggles of the 2023 Panthers offense as a whole.  QB's like Newton or Jackson or Mahomes (that last reference in my post was hyperbole) can and have elevated above their teams weaknesses.  Stroud played good enough and made. those around him better enough to get them to the playoffs in a weak division. 

Of all the reasonable options that could have started for the Panthers at QB in 2023 (Young, Stroud, Richardson, Levis, and Dalton) none seemed to be the type of player that would have succeeded more than Young did with the offensive line and the entire offensive system being as bad as it was.

stroud will punish you with a deep ball, young not so much

[mountainpantherfan2]

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think what Bryce specifically does/did....is allows a defense to play defense in a manner they can't and don't vs others. 

and then Bryce just plays into that largely.  

which is going to always bring the convo back to Bryce's physical tools IMO.  Other QBs can threaten the field in scenarios Bryce can't.  They can threaten parts of the field and attack smaller passing windows than Bryce....and more importantly, they can do it in non-ideal scenarios.  Non-ideal scenarios make throws tougher.  Bryce doesn't make/can't make many of those throws and Ds know it.  That's the Bryce issue.  People say but Bryce could.  But they are saying he might could in an ideal scenarios.  He doesn't have the velocity to hit throws to hit tight windows downfield, and specifically when the pocket forces him into a non-ideal scenarios IMO. 

 

That's a great analysis!  

So, with that analysis, how do you think Bryce had the game he had vs Green Bay.  Was it that the Packer's defense was just giving him those ideal scenarios or was it an anomaly from Bryce? 

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, mountainpantherfan2 said:

@CRA actually, I said kidnap Mahomes.  It was hyperbole.  But if you want to take it literally, I'm still pretty sure Mahomes wouldn't have won any more games for us if the team broke into his home, covered his head with a bag, brought him to Charlotte and then tried to force him to play QB for us in 2023.  Or maybe he does.  Either way, I feel like the line was the bigger issue than the play at QB. 

hard to tell sarcasm sometimes. 

I mean, look I said, before the season started the org set Bryce up to fail (big picture)......I have never been it's an all Bryce guy.  Shoot, I still think he is going into the season with weak options at the 3 spots that matter most if Bryce is your QB.  And top it off, I think he is paired once again with a scheme that isn't meant for him.  I just don't get drafting him if you weren't going to cater to him.  It would like drafting Cam and have him mimic 2nd half of his career Tom Brady on O.  It doesn't fit.  Say what you will about them, but when Ron/Hurney drafted Cam....they went all in day 1 on the type QB he was.  Scheme, plays and talent.  It got him up and running instantly. 

but then Bryce also highlighted his own issues.  And he has some big ones given he was a #1 overall draft pick.  

and I still feel, they are not setting him up to reach whatever ceiling he has. 

 

[strato]

54 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, poster also said Young or Mahomes, it would have made no difference. 

If there was way to actually test that hypothetical, I would sell every belonging I have and wager that Mahomes would indeed yield different results. 

Mahomes automatically changes the D coverages.  He automatically changes the threats.  He attacks and threatens a field different vastly different.   We have seen good QBs and great QBs play behind horrific OLs in a single season....and they don't default into being the worst team in the NFL.  Frank Reich was old, stubborn and not creative enough to deal with an anomaly QB like Bryce.  The best QB in the NFL wouldn't be handicapping Frank, they would be enhancing Frank.  Starting week 1, Frank didn't even trust Bryce with basics....Frank gave him I what I feel comfortable with you being able to do offense.  Which took throws and plays off the table because Bryce couldn't do early on what a bad vet in Dalton could. 

Mahomes would not yield the same results. 

I am not sure there is a coach that can shine Bryce Young to be what he is not (and I feel will never be), in the NFL. If you can’t hit a deep ball you are just no big threat to an NFL defense, even the bad ones. 

 

Edited May 3 by strato