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Give Morgan Credit

kungfoodude

By kungfoodude,
in Carolina Panthers

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

It was from a draft podcast from the athletic last year. There are always exceptions, but TEs usually take the longest from 2-3 years. It wouldn’t really make sense from a Panthers fan perspective as you mentioned we have developed 0 successfully lately. 

I say that because in the last ten years a lot of the best receiving producers statistically are TE's. And a decent chunk of those noted blockers, as well.

IMO, it mirrors the WR trend. There are a lot more capable players coming out today than in years past. Doesn't mean there isn't an adjustment, everyone has that. I just don't think these old adages really ring as true for the better prospects.

I think our problem is that we heavily lean towards project players like Sanders and then rely on them to not be projects.

This is why I have been so heavily against these sort of picks(I was a fan of the Sanders pick, for the record) for us because we take project guys in the second half of the first round through the 7th round. The hite rates are unbelievably low and then we make it worse by having to press them into action too early.

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I say that because in the last ten years a lot of the best receiving producers statistically are TE's. And a decent chunk of those noted blockers, as well.

IMO, it mirrors the WR trend. There are a lot more capable players coming out today than in years past. Doesn't mean there isn't an adjustment, everyone has that. I just don't think these old adages really ring as true for the better prospects.

I think our problem is that we heavily lean towards project players like Sanders and then rely on them to not be projects.

This is why I have been so heavily against these sort of picks(I was a fan of the Sanders pick, for the record) for us because we take project guys in the second half of the first round through the 7th round. The hite rates are unbelievably low and then we make it worse by having to press them into action too early.

TEs are definitely more of a weapon now but that doesn't really counter my point of them taking time to develop.  Yeah there are exceptions with the elite ones, but we are talking about a 4th rounder here.  Look at last year's class, LaPorta did amazing (he was the exception), Kincaid was meh, Mayer didn't do much, Musgrave didn't do much, Shoonmaker didn't do hardly anything, Strange has like 9 targets, and these were all drafted in rounds 1-2.  We have to be realistic with these players in regards to where they were drafted.  Expecting a 4th round TE to start right away and look good do it isn't realistic...  If Sanders develops into a solid starter than that would be a huge success for a 4th round TE.  

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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1 hour ago, ForJimmy said:

TEs are definitely more of a weapon now but that doesn't really counter my point of them taking time to develop.  Yeah there are exceptions with the elite ones, but we are talking about a 4th rounder here.  Look at last year's class, LaPorta did amazing (he was the exception), Kincaid was meh, Mayer didn't do much, Musgrave didn't do much, Shoonmaker didn't do hardly anything, Strange has like 9 targets, and these were all drafted in rounds 1-2.  We have to be realistic with these players in regards to where they were drafted.  Expecting a 4th round TE to start right away and look good do it isn't realistic...  If Sanders develops into a solid starter than that would be a huge success for a 4th round TE.  

We just aren't going to agree on the development being very long for TE's. It is what it is. 

For Sanders, I agree it was unrealistic to have him play and produce right away. I am a little surprised how bad overall he has been but, as you say, 4th round pick. If he develops into a decent backup, that's a home run.

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AU-panther Mentor

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8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

We just aren't going to agree on the development being very long for TE's. It is what it is. 

For Sanders, I agree it was unrealistic to have him play and produce right away. I am a little surprised how bad overall he has been but, as you say, 4th round pick. If he develops into a decent backup, that's a home run.

I'm not standing up for our drafting, i haven't really been impressed but from what I have read ForJimmy might be right.  I can't find the actual article but if i remember correctly there is some history of TEs developing slower relative to other positions.  Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking as a whole relative to other positions.

 

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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Just now, AU-panther said:

I'm not standing up for our drafting, i haven't really been impressed but from what I have read ForJimmy might be right.  I can't find the actual article but if i remember correctly there is some history of TEs developing slower relative to other positions.  Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking as a whole relative to other positions.

 

I don't doubt there was an article but I would be interested to know the basis of that. I get that TE's have dual roles but, so do most players on an offense. RB's are expected to run the ball, block and catch the ball. WR's are expected to catch the ball and block. Etc, etc.

I don't think there is anything inherently more difficult about being a TE and I do generally think players in the modern era are typically much more experienced and prepared than they ever have been before.

This is the bigger reason you see a lot of these skill position players being more effective earlier in their careers, IMO. We are in the era of extreme specialization. If you were playing at a high level throughout HS, you probably had position specific training for years and years. And the amount of training and reps are way, way, WAY higher than 20-30 years ago.

That doesn't apply to everyone and with each step up from HS to college to the NFL there is an adjustment to the speed, difficulty, etc. But if you are a player that was elite, often you are well prepared for that.

This will differ if you are a 5th round small school pick that may not have the resources poured into them over the years. That adjustment might be more in some of those cases.

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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10 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I'm not standing up for our drafting, i haven't really been impressed but from what I have read ForJimmy might be right.  I can't find the actual article but if i remember correctly there is some history of TEs developing slower relative to other positions.  Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking as a whole relative to other positions.

 

It was in the 2023 draft podcast by the Athletic. There have been other articles as well. I actually go this info from another person on a Discord site. We drafted him thinking he would sit behind Thomas and Tremble for a minute. Look how bad Zavala looked last year when we rushed him out vs this year. 
Honestly, just thinking about it we probably should line Sanders out like a WR and let him play to his strengths, learn that and get settled before pulling him in for these blocking assignments. I know we had to do it out of necessity, but yeah he is struggling right now. 

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Tr3ach Grand Master

Tr3ach

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20 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah most of you all have been spot on about this.  We just aren't good enough to take a player that has to sit a large portion of the season, much less a RB early...

Morgan wants to build a team like it's 1999.  In 99 running backs were really valuable.

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Tr3ach Grand Master

Tr3ach

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9 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

If you didn't know that Scott Fitterer was gone but just solely looked at his orevious drafts and 2024, you would never know he left.

Exactly.  I've felt that ever since the draft.  I was worried it was going to be Fitterer 2.0 as soon as we promoted Morgan and as soon as the draft happened it almost confirmed my fears.

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