Adam Theilen said he came back to play with Bryce, and he expects the Panthers to surprise some people

[Icege]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

which you can argue, has been actually a problem/flaw for Carolina.    Generally speaking, if AT has a good game and we force production to him.......we haven't won.  

In the random games we have won, AT generally had 40 yards or didn't play.  Which is true of 6 of our 7 wins.   

I still contend AT has taken up too much oxygen in this O.  Too many reps and targets.  

His only two games where he was targeted more than 5 - 6 times was against Tampa and Philly. Both of those were incredibly close losses.

Are you sure that your memory and/or assessment are both accurate here? The data doesn't match either.

[frankw]

10 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Coaches can't mentor, they coach, they are two entirely different things, and your coaches can also only do so many things at one time.  When they're running a drill, the vets are pulling the young guys aside after their reps and giving tips while waiting for the drill to reset.

You do also realize that for the most part, players are only around the coaches in the film room and on the field, coaches aren't in the locker room other than just before the game and at half.  That's another place someone like Thielen shines, he's always been a pro's pro, he's going to take these young WRs under his wing and team them how you go about being an NFL player.

That's not stuff coaches do, you NEED the vets for it and Thielen has embraced the role.  When you have a guy who made his career on doing the little things right, and he is willing to be that vet mentor to a group of young WRs in their 1st or 2nd year that you hope to be your future 1-4, then he's worth every penny we're giving him this year.

Certainly there can be value in veteran mentorship. I think that's more relevant and valuable on teams that already have an established culture and identity. This franchise just isn't that. And let's be realistic. The better and consistently competitive franchises aren't making older fringe washed up veterans a priority the way we are. It's not a personal slight on anyone. I think Thielen and Dalton are great guys. But this is a franchise that hasn't had a winning season heading into 8 years now. We aren't going to change that making mentors out of aging players other teams have virtually no interest in regardless of how much we may like them personally. Just an honest assessment.

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, Icege said:

His only two games where he was targeted more than 5 - 6 times was against Tampa and Philly. Both of those were incredibly close losses.

Are you sure that your memory and/or assessment are both accurate here? The data doesn't match either.

you post it shows 44, 43, 40, DNP, DNP in our wins on the season.   

2023, he had 40 in a win.  That's 6 of the 7.  Math seems to be mathing. We have no wins with AT having "great" games.   Outlier is the Hou game w/ 70 in 23

I just think AT is a double edged sword given where we are.  

[PNW_PantherMan]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

you post it shows 44, 43, 40, DNP, DNP in our wins on the season.   

Last year, he had 40 in a win.  That's 6 of the 7.  Math seems to be mathing. We have no wins with AT having "great" games.   Outlier is the Hou game w/ 70 in 23

 

So wins are now a WR stat.  The haters ball is in full swing.

[Candler Cat]

I hope AT has a good year, and then hangs them up

I also hope XL develops some hands

[CRA]

1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

So wins are now a WR stat.  The haters ball is in full swing.

Nothing is ever that simplistic.  But he doesn't really get open.  He can do anything with the ball in this hands really.  He is a small TE at this stage and we tend to often make him too be of a focal point on Sunday which I have argued always makes life too easy on defenses and keep the ceiling of the O very low.  Which is why "great" O play for us (our curve) only generates about 200 yards of O. 

I'd love AT if I was the Eagles or something.  Where I trot him out randomly on a 3rd down and getting very limited work.  Ricky Prohel.      

[frankw]

When AT has more targets than Mike fuging Evans and barely cracks 1k yards and we win 2 games and finish with the worst passing O in the league I think it's safe to say if the goal is increasing the win output the ball needs to be in someone else's hands. AT being the focal point in any capacity is not going to win games. That's simple reality.

[Icege]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

you post it shows 44, 43, 40, DNP, DNP in our wins on the season.   

2023, he had 40 in a win.  That's 6 of the 7.  Math seems to be mathing. We have no wins with AT having "great" games.   Outlier is the Hou game w/ 70 in 23

I just think AT is a double edged sword given where we are.  

You said that we forced production to Thielen. Why are you looking at receiving yards to confirm that rather than targets?

[CRA]

20 minutes ago, Icege said:

You said that we forced production to Thielen. Why are you looking at receiving yards to confirm that rather than targets?

Okay in our wins he had 0, 0, 6, 6, and 6 targets last year while producing about 40 yards in games he did play in.  Those games also represented games he had the least amount yards on the field on the season and was slightly under his average targets per game.  

AT production and games people use to talk about how good he still is.....don't translate to wins.  To me, we often just get stuck in games both in 23 and 24 of over targeting him and him getting too many non-threatening yards.  Those are the AT fantasy football games.  

Like I said, to me it's just the fit of it all.  He occupies space in our cap and basically team where we need real legit O coming from that spot..  To me, he just isn't that dude.  Given where we are, I'd rather be building up younger guys with the reps.   I think he gets too many is all.  I get why they had to keep him.  But he needs to be phased down on reps on the field.   

It's not just targets.  It's offensive snaps.   But yeah, when AT is dominating snaps and then gets up to the 7 or 8 or heaven for bid 10+ targets? That's just not the football I want to see.  That's losing football IMO if AT occupies that role in the O. 

[frankw]

If the shoe was on the other foot and a divisional rival fanbase was trying to prop up someone like Adam Thielen the way some folks here are these same people would be viciously mocking them.

[LinvilleGorge]

You're still blaming the one guy who was producing. It's not Thielen's fault that at 34 years old signed to be a #3 option he was forced into a feature role because no one else in the receiving corps stepped up. That's the massive piece here that some of y'all are just absolutely whiffing on. No one is acting like Theilen is a top tier WR at this point in his career. Y'all are trying to argue against something that no one is saying.

[mrcompletely11]

53 minutes ago, Icege said:

It is strange seeing the same Panthers fans that complained about Cam not getting enough help turn around and complain that Bryce has received too much help.

All because they drafted a WR high in back-to-back seasons, retained a mentor QB as a back-up, and signed a veteran target just like they did for Cam?

Weird...

Thats a strange take as I dont recall anyone clamoring for Cam to have a vet mentor because he took the reins of the team in week 1 and held tight until his release.   Cam had it figured out day one.  But I guess Bryce needs his support blanket.

Edited 4 hours ago by mrcompletely11

[CRA]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

You're still blaming the one guy who was producing. It's not Thielen's fault that at 34 years old signed to be a #3 option he was forced into a feature role because no one else in the receiving corps stepped up. That's the massive piece here that some of y'all are just absolutely whiffing on. No one is acting like Theilen is a top tier WR at this point in his career. Y'all are trying to argue against something that no one is saying.

oh, 100%, it's not AT's fault.  I just hate the scenario was basically.....well,  a rookie didn't step up so we really have no option but to convince AT not to retire with even more money/cap. 

To me, we have been for some time the land of random parts being places together.   Maybe Canales will stay around long enough that changes.   I think it's going to hard for any coach under Tepper to survive to get a real cohesive vision to play out. 

 

[frankw]

8 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You're still blaming the one guy who was producing. It's not Thielen's fault that at 34 years old signed to be a #3 option he was forced into a feature role because no one else in the receiving corps stepped up. That's the massive piece here that some of y'all are just absolutely whiffing on. No one is acting like Theilen is a top tier WR at this point in his career. Y'all are trying to argue against something that no one is saying.

Two wins bud.

2 wins.

Accept it.