Bryce stats past the sticks

[tukafan21]

3 minutes ago, Icege said:

I am struggling to wrap my head around this... If the team is trying to compete, then they should have thrown the ball more when averaging over 5ypc? If they're not trying to compete, they should have thrown the ball more to see if Bryce can be the guy?

Has nothing to do with the yards per carry, like at all.

It's that 17 of his 25 passes were less than 10 yards downfield, against the worst pass defense in the league.  It's another game where Bryce's passing attempts were mostly dink and dunk type of passes.

I wasn't asking us to throw it more yesterday, hell, if anything, you could make an argument that with how we were running it, we should have thrown it less than 25 times anyways.  It's that we still threw it 25 times but only had 8 of them where the ball was thrown 10+ yards downfield.

Our schedule takes a dramatic shift after this week, even next week against the Jets, they have a decent defense for a team that hasn't won a game yet.  This was a great opportunity to allow Bryce to throw the ball downfield more against the worst pass defense in the league, hence I'd just have liked to see more than 8 of 25 passes be thrown further than 10 yards downfield.

IF we were going to throw it 25 times against Dallas, I'd have liked to see a good 12-15 of them be further than 10 yards downfield, let Bryce work on his weakness against the worst pass defense in the league, not throw more dink and dunk passes per usual.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[OldhamA]

18 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

For me, it's less about the % of downfield passes, it's about that percentage of them in a game against such a bad pass defense.

I've said it too many times to count, this season was never meant to be about winning games as the main priority, it was always about the growth of Bryce and if he can be the QB of the future (and same for Canales' future, but to a slightly lesser extent).  Set aside whether you think he's already proven he can't be, as that's a different discussion that no matter what fans think, while the season is being played, the team is never going to think he can't be while continuing to play him.  

So, if you operate under the assumption that the team still thinks he has a chance to be our QB of the future, that is when I then take issue with the percentage of 10+ yard throws in a game against the worst pass defense.

I know we won the games and actually looked like a competent NFL team in the process, so don't take me saying this as "being upset" about the game.  But yes, I am still disappointed that we didn't use a game against a defense like that to try and further Bryce's development by taking more downfield chances.  Which doesn't mean 50 yard bombs, but throwing more 15-25 yard passes downfield would have been nice to see against such a weak defense.

This season was about continuing to dig ourselves out of the crater Fitterer (and by extension Young with the three first round picks we traded for him) buried us in.

Tepper is determined to make Bryce happen, so we're forced to play him at QB and adjust around his obvious inadequacies. 

Edited 4 hours ago by OldhamA

[ProcessBlue2]

25 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

8 passes past 10 yards. 6 completions, 3 TDs. I'm fine with 8 passes out of 25 down field tbh. 

Edit: note that I do not think this is showing deliberate incompletions / throwing the ball away.

He can be our post injury Delhomme in 2008. I am fine with Hubbard and Dowdle being our Willliams and Stewart. 
 

Canales has some eating to do and hair to grow if he’s going to be Jeff Davidson tho.

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, OldhamA said:

This season was about continuing to dig ourselves out of the crater Fitterer (and by extension Young with the three first round picks we traded for him) buried us in.

Tepper is determined to make Bryce happen, so we're forced to play him at QB and adjust around his obvious inadequacies. 

Hence my point... if the team is still determined to make Bryce happen, you have to take advantage of the opportunities to help him grow as a player.  You only get 17 games a season, and only a handful of them against a pass defense as bad as the Cowboys are this year.

You play the worst pass defense in the league, throw it 25 times, but only 8 of them more than 10 yards downfield.

That's bad math right there, that percentage needs to be higher in a game like this against a defense like that.

It's a similar argument to what the majority of our fans made in the preseason and the lack of Bryce snaps in those games.  You're not taking advantage of the opportunities to improve his play when they are presented to you, this is just a different reason for it, but same general concept.

[strato]

34 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

That'a great stat and all, but part of it is also concerning when you really think about it.

Maybe it's just because of how well we were running it, but it still means we only threw the ball more than 10 yards down the field only 9 times all game?  And even that isn't entirely accurate as at least a handful of those "past the sticks" throws were likely less than 10 yards, such as the 4th down pass to Renfrow.

It means at least 16 of 25 pass attempts were less than 10 yards, and since we know the Renfrow one was, that means 17 of 25 passes were 10 yards or less downfield.  That might have worked in a game like this, but you're never going to be legitimately successful in today's NFL if you can't throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field with any consistency.

Against the worst pass defenses in the league, it seemed like a game where you could get Bryce some more confidence in his downfield passing by taking more down field attempts.

And no, before anyone says it, this is NOT a T-Mac post, it's just a legitimate concern that we're flat out afraid of letting Bryce throw it downfield at all.  

I already gave Canales his props for aclling a great game yesterday, and I still think he did.  But seeing a stat like this does give me cause for concern to yet again, have a game where we had a great chance to work on things to help Bryce's development, and didn't take that opportunity (just like the lack of pushing the passing game in the Falcons blowout).

Apparently it wasn’t necessary. So, they get a pass. 
We have some defenses coming up that will challenge that type of plan. 

[PantherChris]

8 minutes ago, ProcessBlue2 said:

I really hope Dowdle and Hubbard have a run off against one another for the starting job and we run for like 350 yards and only have to pass the ball like 10 times. Jets pass D is pretty decent.

No its really not, their run d is just awful and it shows in the pass stats....

Most TD passes allowed, HIGH YPA

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, strato said:

Apparently it wasn’t necessary. So, they get a pass. 
We have some defenses coming up that will challenge that type of plan. 

Just because it wasn't necessary doesn't mean it was the right decision.

And look, I get it, the coaches and players just want to win the game and are doing what they see best to do so every week.  But as a fan who knows we aren't going to be a SB or even likely a playoff contender this season, I'd like to see them take advantage of opportunities during the season to allow Bryce to improve on the things he doesn't do well.

This game was one of those opportunities, maybe even more so with how well the running game was working.  As we could have done more play action to give him the extra half second to throw it further downfield, that's all.

I've been one of the more critical posters against both Bryce and Canales, but I also already gave both of them props for this game.  I'm just a tiny bit frustrated at us not taking advantage of another situation to help actually improve Bryce's biggest weakness, as this seemed like the game to do it.

Neither Bryce nor the team will have long term or high level success if he can't throw the ball down the field more than 10 yards, that's really not even debatable.  You have a game against the worst pass defense in the league, you throw it 25 times, but only 8 of them 10+ yards downfield, to me, that's just bad math.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[strato]

10 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

The Panthers have released a video of his TDs today.

We're being gaslit. 

I saw a video on YouTube that had every offensive snap. Including punts and coverage, and the placekicks.  Worth seeking out. 

[cranky]

46 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

That'a great stat and all, but part of it is also concerning when you really think about it.

Maybe it's just because of how well we were running it, but it still means we only threw the ball more than 10 yards down the field only 9 times all game?  And even that isn't entirely accurate as at least a handful of those "past the sticks" throws were likely less than 10 yards, such as the 4th down pass to Renfrow.

It means at least 16 of 25 pass attempts were less than 10 yards, and since we know the Renfrow one was, that means 17 of 25 passes were 10 yards or less downfield.  That might have worked in a game like this, but you're never going to be legitimately successful in today's NFL if you can't throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field with any consistency.

Against the worst pass defenses in the league, it seemed like a game where you could get Bryce some more confidence in his downfield passing by taking more down field attempts.

And no, before anyone says it, this is NOT a T-Mac post, it's just a legitimate concern that we're flat out afraid of letting Bryce throw it downfield at all.  

I already gave Canales his props for aclling a great game yesterday, and I still think he did.  But seeing a stat like this does give me cause for concern to yet again, have a game where we had a great chance to work on things to help Bryce's development, and didn't take that opportunity (just like the lack of pushing the passing game in the Falcons blowout).

If you look at every QBs chart on the NextGen stats page, you will see Young pretty much threw more passes past the 10 yard line than any of the other QB's this week and he completed a higher percentage of them this week as well. The same goes for last week. He doesn't have the most both weeks but he is in the top 5 both weeks.

I don't know why everyone keeps griping about this subject. The charts show it simply isn't true.

Edited 4 hours ago by cranky
clarity

[strato]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

Just because it wasn't necessary doesn't mean it was the right decision.

And look, I get it, the coaches and players just want to win the game and are doing what they see best to do so every week.  But as a fan who knows we aren't going to be a SB or even likely a playoff contender this season, I'd like to see them take advantage of opportunities during the season to allow Bryce to improve on the things he doesn't do well.

This game was one of those opportunities, maybe even more so with how well the running game was working.  As we could have done more play action to give him the extra half second to throw it further downfield, that's all.

I've been one of the more critical posters against both Bryce and Canales, but I also already gave both of them props for this game.  I'm just a tiny bit frustrated at us not taking advantage of another situation to help actually improve Bryce's biggest weakness, as this seemed like the game to do it.

I hear you but they are coaching to win the game. You start unnecessarily taking risks you introduce a few bad outcome possibilities. 
His ball security is poor, to start with. And we had Nijman at ROT. A strip sack, an int, just a simple loss of the down due to a missed connection,  could change the outcome. You don’t fug with maybe throwing the game away just to practice stuff. 

It’s coming. It has to be coming. That box will be stacked with players who can win the down, soon enough. Then I hope we see some of what you are asking for. 

[TD alt]

1 hour ago, Dave Gettleman's Shorts said:

crazy what a good run game and play action does for a QB

I mean...last year

[CPF4LIFE]

32 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Splash plays are important, but ball control is much more important.  The longer we hold onto the ball the more we don't have to play catch-up. 

Sounds like Rivera ball, which worked marginally. But Rivera ball also didn't win us a championship or bring back to back winning seasons so it's love hate with that style of play.

Edited 4 hours ago by CPF4LIFE

[tukafan21]

6 minutes ago, strato said:

I hear you but they are coaching to win the game. You start unnecessarily taking risks you introduce a few bad outcome possibilities. 
His ball security is poor, to start with. And we had Nijman at ROT. A strip sack, an int, just a simple loss of the down due to a missed connection,  could change the outcome. You don’t fug with maybe throwing the game away just to practice stuff. 

It’s coming. It has to be coming. That box will be stacked with players who can win the down, soon enough. Then I hope we see some of what you are asking for. 

I don't necessarily agree that they're "coaching to win the game" in that sense.

If we were a contender with an established QB, then yes, you're "coaching to win the game"

But if our coaches are only "coaching to win the game" every week, then they need to be replaced, immediately.  This team is WAY too young with too many uncertain futures to only be worried about the game at hand every week.  It's the literal reason Canales came out and said we need to play the younger defensive players more and why we cut DJ, because we need to improve the younger guys on an accelerated schedule.

Sometimes you do things that may hurt your chances to win that week but will significantly increase your chances to win more in the future.

With a team like ours, there has to be a balance of trying to win games while also trying to improve our players at the same time, and I see games/stats like this and see a somewhat missed opportunity, that's it.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[CPF4LIFE]

22 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Has nothing to do with the yards per carry, like at all.

It's that 17 of his 25 passes were less than 10 yards downfield, against the worst pass defense in the league.  It's another game where Bryce's passing attempts were mostly dink and dunk type of passes.

I wasn't asking us to throw it more yesterday, hell, if anything, you could make an argument that with how we were running it, we should have thrown it less than 25 times anyways.  It's that we still threw it 25 times but only had 8 of them where the ball was thrown 10+ yards downfield.

Our schedule takes a dramatic shift after this week, even next week against the Jets, they have a decent defense for a team that hasn't won a game yet.  This was a great opportunity to allow Bryce to throw the ball downfield more against the worst pass defense in the league, hence I'd just have liked to see more than 8 of 25 passes be thrown further than 10 yards downfield.

IF we were going to throw it 25 times against Dallas, I'd have liked to see a good 12-15 of them be further than 10 yards downfield, let Bryce work on his weakness against the worst pass defense in the league, not throw more dink and dunk passes per usual.

I think the gameplan is all about winning right now which im not gonna knock Canales for. I do think coming into the season it was to let bryce air out so he can develop but he clearly had to change something up to avoid being forced to yank bryce off the field again.