One man’s trash…

[WhoKnows]

33 minutes ago, thennek said:

Pretty sure Tepper wanted BY regardless of the coach. Unfortunately for Panthers fans. I am confident Reich did not want BY. 

 

You are? Fitterer kept telling the story about how they were 100% in line. He said they wrote down who they liked before and after the draft prep and they both agreed. Fitterer also talked about how he had his eye on Young during his sophomore year, which makes it even more puzzling that he didn’t trade Burns to make sure he could get Young in the next draft.

Reich got a lot of excuses in here about Young because so many people loved the hire, but there was a lot of pre-draft discussions about GM and HC being in agreement. Heck, the point guard analogy came from Thomas Brown in February and Tepper still gets blamed for parroting what the coaches were invariably saying. Tepper has sucked because it’s his team but man does he get a lot of blame for decisions the football people said they made. I guess Rhule was enough of a personality that people focused on him but Frank and Scott got passes and Tepper was an easy target. It allowed the Fitterer and Reich fans to not feel as bad that they were wrong.

[djp14]

1 hour ago, The Huddler said:

hes a product of the system

We need to get one of them thar systems. 

[mrcompletely11]

7 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

You are? Fitterer kept telling the story about how they were 100% in line. 

you really believe that?

[strato]

11 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

You are? Fitterer kept telling the story about how they were 100% in line. He said they wrote down who they liked before and after the draft prep and they both agreed. Fitterer also talked about how he had his eye on Young during his sophomore year, which makes it even more puzzling that he didn’t trade Burns to make sure he could get Young in the next draft.

Reich got a lot of excuses in here about Young because so many people loved the hire, but there was a lot of pre-draft discussions about GM and HC being in agreement. Heck, the point guard analogy came from Thomas Brown in February and Tepper still gets blamed for parroting what the coaches were invariably saying. Tepper has sucked because it’s his team but man does he get a lot of blame for decisions the football people said they made. I guess Rhule was enough of a personality that people focused on him but Frank and Scott got passes and Tepper was an easy target. It allowed the Fitterer and Reich fans to not feel as bad that they were wrong.

I had forgotten the little slips of paper thing. But they lie, okay? They just do. It is really important for the players that they present them with a unified front. Candor is not  a priority. 

If you could look at Frank and see a man that was happy with the decision, you have something I don’t have. 

[WhoKnows]

5 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

you really believe that?

Frank was there when Fitterer went on about it and yes, I believe what the GM says during a post draft interview when Young hadn’t been to a single practice yet. I typically believe what is actually said versus a gut feeling from a huddler. Same reason why I never believed Tepper did the scouting and came up with the point guard thing. Thomas Brown, the OC, was quoted about QBs as PGs 3 months prior which makes it far more probable that Tepper parroted what he heard from the coaches.

Also at that point, Fitterer, who I never liked, had no reason to make excuses. We had the QB he so wanted and that everyone did. No reason to make anything up because Fitterer was also pretty well liked by the optimists in here. Back then, they were telling us why Burns shouldn’t have been traded.

I still think Tepper sucks because it’s all been his hires so he’s to blame but man people can’t seem to get off the boogeyman, one guy did it all, thought process.

[WhoKnows]

5 minutes ago, strato said:

I had forgotten the little slips of paper thing. But they lie, okay? They just do. It is really important for the players that they present them with a unified front. Candor is not  a priority. 

If you could look at Frank and see a man that was happy with the decision, you have something I don’t have. 

Why lie? At that point Young hadn’t played at all for us. It’s funny that people won’t believe the story we heard at 0% hot seat. They would rather believe what another huddle says he feels with 0 actual proof.

[Bear Hands]

They built the right supporting cast and landed a great coach. Drafted the wrong QB but a guy like Jones is thriving. 

It’s fun to see

[strato]

5 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Why lie? At that point Young hadn’t played at all for us. It’s funny that people won’t believe the story we heard at 0% hot seat. They would rather believe what another huddle says he feels with 0 actual proof.

I just told you why. You don’t want to accept my contention. Your right 
People want to portray Frank as incompetent and a bad coach and bad judge of talent to bolster their Bryce excuse making for that first year. But Frank did not want him, and once he was saddled with him he tried to get them to sit the kid so he wouldn’t be embarrassed and could maybe learn and get a little more ready. 

He was not the bumbling idiot that many people portrayed him as. He was a fine judge of QB talent that had worked with some of the best. You will not easily fool a guy that played that position in tne league for many years and coached some great QBs, knowing full well what it takes to play the position in the NFL. You can debate his schemes all you want that is a different skill set from evaluating a player  

I mean, they didn’t fool me and Frank is like 1000 times more capable of making that determination than I am.  It was cake for him. 
I see it as he found himself surrounded and outnumbered and went with the program as best he could.
If you knew that everyone you work with (and you are new) had their minds made up - would you die on the lonely hill of dissent or would you just write the name down that you knew they were going to write down, and try to make it work? That is what I will believe he did until he corrects me. 

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, strato said:

I think the second is less than inevitable, yet still possible of course.
That was kind of a circus in NYC. With a strong staff and the experience he has gotten out of his NYG time, it could be different. 

A guy like Jones at average pay is going to not work out IMO. The 20 million difference to spend elsewhere is too large of a hurdle when the QB plays good but not carry the team good. They are in the sweet spot currently at cost to value with him. Darnold is pretty much the same. Good in a limited role but lean on him and he will fold. Tua didn't beat good teams when it had to be on his back to be the difference, and that was true when his team was stacked. All of Murray's talent has resulted in 1 winning season for them and 1 wildcard loss. The NFL has an overpaying mediocre QB issue. At the right price it's not an issue but can be a positive. It inevitably leads to a worse roster which becomes a poo show. NY gave up their RB because they paid Jones and proved that. The first is most likely leading to the second. Baker is bucking that trend but he was always the best of any of that group, even if his time here was pretty much the worst setup possible.

Edited 3 hours ago by Waldo

[kungfoodude]

19 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

They built the right supporting cast and landed a great coach. Drafted the wrong QB but a guy like Jones is thriving. 

It’s fun to see

I didn't want anything to do with Anthony Richardson but if the net result would have been a pivot this quickly away from a bad draft pick, sign me up.

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, Waldo said:

A guy like Jones at average pay is going to not work out IMO. The 20 million difference to spend elsewhere is too large of a hurdle when the QB plays good but not carry the team good. They are in the sweet spot currently at cost to value with him. Darnold is pretty much the same. Good in a limited role but lean on him and he will fold. Tua didn't beat good teams when it had to be on his back to be the difference, and thatbwas true whem his tram was stacked. All of Murray's talent has resulted in 1 winning season for them and 1 wildcard loss. The NFL has an overpaying mediocre QB issue. At the right price it's not an issue but can be a positive. It inevitably leads to a qorse roster which becomes a poo show. NY gave up their RB because they paid Jones and proved that. The first is most likely leading to the second. Baker is bucking that trend but he was always the best of any of that group, even if his time here was pretty much the worst setup possible.

I don't think it's an overpayment issue. That's just the market. It isn't new at all. The overwhelming majority of big QB contracts are for average to good QB's. That's because there are so incredibly few elite QB's. Almost every position has the same issue. The elite guys pull prices up into the stratosphere and the market adjusts.

 

[strato]

22 minutes ago, Waldo said:

A guy like Jones at average pay is going to not work out IMO. The 20 million difference to spend elsewhere is too large of a hurdle when the QB plays good but not carry the team good. They are in the sweet spot currently at cost to value with him. Darnold is pretty much the same. Good in a limited role but lean on him and he will fold. Tua didn't beat good teams when it had to be on his back to be the difference, and thatbwas true whem his tram was stacked. All of Murray's talent has resulted in 1 winning season for them and 1 wildcard loss. The NFL has an overpaying mediocre QB issue. At the right price it's not an issue but can be a positive. It inevitably leads to a qorse roster which becomes a poo show. NY gave up their RB because they paid Jones and proved that. The first is most likely leading to the second. Baker is bucking that trend but he was always the best of any of that group, even if his time here was pretty much the worst setup possible.

Okay. I mean we are just discussing. 
I never saw Tua as being really a valid guy in tne league. But I am prejudiced against Alabama QBs because of their basic mediocre track records stepping up to the NFL so zi was probably predisposed and biased. But still correct.
FWIW Bryce was such a physical outliee Bama didn’t really enter my thinking. It never became a factor for me. 
Anyhow Murray was kind of a toy, by my standards and not a guy I would have been excited by. Then it got to the contract clause of mandating film study and the game was lost right there. Why would you pay a guy you thought needed the stick instead of the carrot? 
I am just a tools first guy, for gaining admittance to move into the more thorough evaluation phase. It won’t change. 
I just have always been you have to meet the threshold physically before we consider your other areas of potential as a pro. 
Which I believe Jones passed that threshold. And has shown some flashes.  Sure is doing it this year. 
The contention about what how pressure of a big contract might affect his performance, how the roster might lose a player or two two due to his salary precluding paying them, that is something else.

If he continues to compete at this level like he is so far, I would put money on someone paying him though. And we will see what happens. 
 

oops forgot about Darnold. I saw it in him in late ‘22. The ability and him being on the cusp of getting it. He has lived up to the prove it deals, zi don’t know what they gave him in Seattle but it seems to be a good choice so far… 

Edited 3 hours ago by strato

[Waldo]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think it's an overpayment issue. That's just the market. It isn't new at all. The overwhelming majority of big QB contracts are for average to good QB's. That's because there are so incredibly few elite QB's. Almost every position has the same issue. The elite guys pull prices up into the stratosphere and the market adjusts.

 

The supply and demand reality is a big part of the issue but so are teams willingness to overpay even with the obvious issues it raises. They make their profit win or loss and it shows. Arizona hasn't been a contender for most of Murray's career but they keep him around because of supply & demand AND the fact that the owner wins regardless so why not hide behind s&d while keeping the norm going? No reason to play it the hard way, let a guy walk to be overpaid and then find a cast off that can be put in an overall better situation. Too much gamble when the house wins anyways.

[strato]

1 minute ago, Waldo said:

The supply and demand reality is a big part of the issue but so are teams willingness to overpay even with the obvious issues it raises. They make their profit win or loss and it shows. Arizona hasn't been a contender for most of Murray's career but they keep him around because of supply & demand AND the fact that the owner wins regardless so why not hide behind s&d while keeping the norm going? No reason to play it the hard way, let a guy walk to be overpaid and then find a cast off that can be put in an overall better situation. Too much gamble when the house wins anyways.

Yep and I can feel it about to happen to us.