Hall of Fame candidates announced

[tukafan21]

19 minutes ago, frankw said:

I can agree the whole HOF process now seems much more hollow and manipulated than in years past. Mainly just lip service to the larger markets and biggest names. Meh.

5 players get voted in every year, in a league that has 8 non special teams position groups (7 if you group WRs and TEs together like with OL, DL, DB).

Cutting it down to 7 players means all of those players are clearly worthy and should be HOFers.

To then need to achieve a certain threshold of a re-vote amongst those 7 players is such an absurd idea.

If this were the Basketball HOF, where players get in where you say "is that guy really a HOFer?" then I wouldn't have such an issue with it.  But the NFL HOF is one where every year you have people saying they can't believe so and so wasn't voted in this year and nobody ever questions if a player who got in was actually worthy of the honor.

There are lots of players in the HOF who wouldn't have gotten in with this voting method.  That those are the people who were allowed to vote to make this change to now ensure players who are worthy of it will never get in, is just mind boggling.

It's just ruined the appeal of the NFL HOF to me, which is sad, because it genuinely was the best HOF out there.  It's not Basketball where you have unworthy players included, it's not Baseball where worthy players are excluded by holier than thou journalists who vote.  It really was the most pure HOF, limits the number of players who can get in every year but never putting unworthy players into its hallowed halls.

[strato]

4 minutes ago, t96 said:

Quintessential cinderella story athlete, and did it twice. Plus good counting stats and was a top 2nd tier QB his whole career. He should absolutely be in.

I guess that is my thing, I never viewed him as top tier. Despite his couple of magical years. 
I am not campaigning against him or anything, not that invested, just feel like he is a notch below the bar. 

I appreciate the different perspectives. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

It’s an interesting debate.  I don’t think anyone would actually want Eli as their QB.  The only other guys that fit that mold are from a bygone era.

I will say those 2 wins were way more impactful than all the ridiculous stat padding that goes on in the modern era at QB.

[strato]

Just now, PNW_PantherMan said:

It’s an interesting debate.  I don’t think anyone would actually want Eli as their QB.  The only other guys that fit that mold are from a bygone era.

I will say those 2 wins were way more impactful than all the ridiculous stat padding that goes on in the modern era at QB.

Oh hell I would so take him if he were still playing. He is for sure a Giants hall of honor guy or whatever they have. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

Just now, strato said:

Oh hell I would so take him if he were still playing. He is for sure a Giants hall of honor guy or whatever they have. 

I meant hypothetically.  You can pull from any prime HOF QB.  Eli probably isn’t top 20.

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

5 players get voted in every year, in a league that has 8 non special teams position groups (7 if you group WRs and TEs together like with OL, DL, DB).

Cutting it down to 7 players means all of those players are clearly worthy and should be HOFers.

To then need to achieve a certain threshold of a re-vote amongst those 7 players is such an absurd idea.

If this were the Basketball HOF, where players get in where you say "is that guy really a HOFer?" then I wouldn't have such an issue with it.  But the NFL HOF is one where every year you have people saying they can't believe so and so wasn't voted in this year and nobody ever questions if a player who got in was actually worthy of the honor.

There are lots of players in the HOF who wouldn't have gotten in with this voting method.  That those are the people who were allowed to vote to make this change to now ensure players who are worthy of it will never get in, is just mind boggling.

It's just ruined the appeal of the NFL HOF to me, which is sad, because it genuinely was the best HOF out there.  It's not Basketball where you have unworthy players included, it's not Baseball where worthy players are excluded by holier than thou journalists who vote.  It really was the most pure HOF, limits the number of players who can get in every year but never putting unworthy players into its hallowed halls.

What players are you referring to?

[tukafan21]

Anyone saying Eli shouldn't be a HOFer, then should be taking that same attitude towards Frank Gore's status.

Frank Gore never made a single All Pro team and in 16 years he only made 5 Pro Bowls.  He was never the best RB in the league, and there's a real likelihood (without going back through stats from all his seasons) that he was only even in the Top 5 of RBs in a given season one time in his entire career as he only has a single season of over 1,214 yards rushing, and he only reached double digit TDs in a season one time as well.

But he's the 2nd leading rusher of all time because he played at an above average level for an entire healthy career, which more or less is what Eli did.

Eli is 11th all time in both passing yards (was 9th when he retired) and passing TDs (was 10th when he retired).

Eli won 2 SB's, one of which was beating what would have gone down as the best team in NFL history if Eli hadn't beat them.  

For me, they both belong in the HOF due to their stats accumulation after such long and healthy careers.  But if you're going to say Eli shouldn't be in, then you HAVE to say Gore shouldn't be in, as if it's one or the other, it should be Eli getting in and not Gore due to his role in winning two SB's and his two SB MVPs.

[strato]

4 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I meant hypothetically.  You can pull from any prime HOF QB.  Eli probably isn’t top 20.

Oh, okay. Yeah no doubt.

I’d probably take someone like Steve McNair over him even. maybe that’s a stretch but I liked McNair’s game.
 Eli was solid, and pretty consistent if I recall. Understated maybe. He was not flashy. 

Edited 2 hours ago by strato

[WUnderhill]

Time for Steve Smith to get snubbed again.

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, Move the Panthers to Raleigh said:

What players are you referring to?

In what sense?  

If you're talking about the players who are currently in the HOF but wouldn't have gotten in under the new rules?  

Then off the top of my head, I'm not sure as I'm not looking at a list of guys who are in the HOF.  But that doesn't matter, as I'm not even saying those players aren't worthy of being in the HOF.  The NFL's HOF is done in a way that any player who actually has gotten in, 100% deserves to be so.

The problem is that this new rule change will now keep deserving players out, not that it's stopping from undeserving players to get in.

I don't remember the exact voting thresholds (and don't care enough to go look it up), but....

The new system is that they cut it down to 25 players like in the past.  But previously, they then vote and the Top 5 make the HOF.  Now, they vote on the Top 25, take the Top 7 of those votes and put them into a new vote, where they have to get something like 80% of the vote (don't know the exact number).

I think there are something like 50 voters, which means any given player can only lose 10 votes.  The problem is when you're deciding between all players who 100% should get into the HOF, unless there is collusion amongst the voters to make sure they all vote for the same people, you're always going to get just enough vote splitting to keep players from reaching that threshold.

Which is why the sure fire first ballot types are really the only ones who are guaranteed to ever get in moving forward, because you're not going to get 10 people to not vote for a guy like Drew Brees this year.  But you very well might get 10 people who leave Kuechly off for say Reggie Waye, just as you're then going to get 10 people who leave off Wayne to vote Kuechly, which keeps both out of the HOF in the end.

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21

[PleaseCutStewart]

1 hour ago, strato said:

I see Eli Manning is a finalist. Why? 

Because his Dline owned Brady in 2 superbowls and David Tyree made a 1 in a million helmet catch... And like others said, his last name

[PNW_PantherMan]

All hall of fames are doomed to be dumb because the earlier guys will always have gotten in easier than newer ones.  The game is always evolving and people get better and better at it over time.

[tukafan21]

Just now, PNW_PantherMan said:

All hall of fames are doomed to be dumb because the earlier guys will always have gotten in easier than newer ones.  The game is always evolving and people get better and better at it over time.

This is only the case for dumb people who try to compare modern day players to past generations in a vacuum and not smart enough to consider the evolving games.

Real fans of the sports will understand you have to compare players statistics to those of their own generation, if they can't, then that's on them.

[PNW_PantherMan]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

This is only the case for dumb people who try to compare modern day players to past generations in a vacuum and not smart enough to consider the evolving games.

Real fans of the sports will understand you have to compare players statistics to those of their own generation, if they can't, then that's on them.

Sure but the outliers at the beginning of a sport will always be larger than when it’s more developed.  There will never be another night train lane for example.