How Would You Feel if The Panthers Drafted Derrick Henry in the 1st?

[Byrdman4real]

Cap and Henry would be a great duel group. 

[top dawg]

5 minutes ago, Byrdman4real said:

Cap and Henry would be a great duel group. 

They would be a great duo, and would probably be great at dueling too. ;)

[tiger7_88]

44 minutes ago, CRA said:

In fairness, CAP didn't get tons of opportunity to open it up and display his burst.  I still think as an overall RB he is more Williams than Stewart. 

Williams was a much better RB coming into the league as a rookie than CAP.

CAP, however, has the superior vision finding the hole followed by the plant-foot-cut IMO.

Williams was built for typical "pro-set" NFL offense success.

CAP is (and will continue to be) a much better runner from the read-option and shotgun sets.

[t96]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

You're technically correct, of course, but all things being equal, Gettleman is going to pick the man with the size. He point blank said that "size" was the determining factor between Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And of course there he mentioned size when referencing Funchess also.

"You can't coach 6'5", 240." (Dave on Benjamin)

"You can't coach that size." (Dave on Funchess)

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that when Gettleman looks at the tape of Ezekiel Eliott or Alex Collins for example, Henry's size will win out against both of them. 

Size absolutely matters in the trenches to not only Gettleman, but many football execs, but I think that Gettleman puts a premium on size at skilled positions also. 

 

 

On an off note, I think that all this crp about not drafting Henry because he's been used up, or that he is Trent Richardson 2.0 is crazy talk.

 

Can you please find that quote about KB and Lee because I don't remember it at all and I don't believe Gettleman was stupid enough to say that or believe it. The only thing KB didn't have better than Lee coming out of college was speed. Everything else he did better, and still does better. Size is a factor, certainly. But if KB was 6'0 he'd still be better than Lee.

 

I don't agree that size is even a good thing for a RB. For a wide receiver going against shorter corners absolutely. But a RB needs to slip through holes and have field vision more than anything else. When shorter RBs can hide behind the o-line and burst through a hole and be gone before the LBers or D-linemen even see him that's huge. Not many tall backs like Henry have done well in the NFL. I personally haven't seen much of Henry but what I have seen I don't love. The "Trent Richardson 2.0" isn't crazy talk, the used up is, but not the possibility that he won't be any good in the NFL, which I think is a fair prediction. He's not similar to Richardson in many ways but he could certainly have similar productivity in the NFL as Richardson.

 

Elliott is so much better than Henry it's not even close. Elliott is worth a top 15 pick, in my opinion. And if he's there at 30 we're taking him. At best Henry will be a similar back to Blount in my opinion, not worth a pick in the first 3 rounds even (Blount went undrafted). And the most important part of a RB in our offense is where Henry is lacking... His pass protection is terrible. And he doesn't contribute anything to the receiving game.

[top dawg]

45 minutes ago, thomas96 said:

Can you please find that quote about KB and Lee because I don't remember it at all and I don't believe Gettleman was stupid enough to say that or believe it. The only thing KB didn't have better than Lee coming out of college was speed. Everything else he did better, and still does better. Size is a factor, certainly. But if KB was 6'0 he'd still be better than Lee.

 

I don't agree that size is even a good thing for a RB. For a wide receiver going against shorter corners absolutely. But a RB needs to slip through holes and have field vision more than anything else. When shorter RBs can hide behind the o-line and burst through a hole and be gone before the LBers or D-linemen even see him that's huge. Not many tall backs like Henry have done well in the NFL. I personally haven't seen much of Henry but what I have seen I don't love. The "Trent Richardson 2.0" isn't crazy talk, the used up is, but not the possibility that he won't be any good in the NFL, which I think is a fair prediction. He's not similar to Richardson in many ways but he could certainly have similar productivity in the NFL as Richardson.

 

Elliott is so much better than Henry it's not even close. Elliott is worth a top 15 pick, in my opinion. And if he's there at 30 we're taking him. At best Henry will be a similar back to Blount in my opinion, not worth a pick in the first 3 rounds even (Blount went undrafted). And the most important part of a RB in our offense is where Henry is lacking... His pass protection is terrible. And he doesn't contribute anything to the receiving game.

Well, Thomas, everyone has their opinions. I don't see anything exceptional about Elliott. I just can't talk in absolutes when it comes to football players. Does Henry run upright? Sure.  Latavius Murray runs upright, but he is having modest success. Eric Dickerson ran upright, as did Christian Okoye and Brandon Jacobs to name a few. Just because you're a tall running back doesn't mean that you won't be worth your weight in gold.

Anyway, Start at around 14:25. When the reporter asks why Benjamin was picked instead of Lee (and others), Gettleman answered "Size!"

http://www.panthers.com/media-vault/videos/Dave-Gettleman-You-cant-coach-6-5-240/78e23a4b-199d-4f70-8326-3773ec2c4a42

It's easy to talk about Lee as a bust now, but no one thought that he'd  doso horribly after his first couple of seasons then. And, some may still be loath to discredit his skill because it has been injury that has derailed his career so far.

Edit: A skilled football player that has size trumps a smaller guy, all the other things being equal, in many persons' minds.  I just don't see Gettleman basically stating this as anything out of the ordinary (much less "stupid").  It's all guess work, my friend, at the end of the day.

[top dawg]

29 minutes ago, thomas96 said:

His pass protection is terrible. And he doesn't contribute anything to the receiving game.

And, to this point, specifically, I have read reports to the contrary. He is great in pass protection, and he is possibly  a good receiver (it's just that the sample size is small).

[top dawg]

Let's get this straight. At this point, I don' see us taking Henry or Elliott in the first.  We aren't talking Todd Gurley here.  I don't think that G-man will reach for either one.  Now, of course there is the Combine and workouts that may change things.

I have gone on the record by saying that I believe Dodd will be the pick. You might want to also put Johnathan Bullard in your train of thought as well.

I still like Henry though, and if we can get him later, then I am all for it (As a matter of fact, G-man has proven adept with his first and second round picks in my mind, so I probably won't hate it if he does pick Henry in the first, though I don't believe that he will at this point).

[t96]

8 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Well, Thomas, everyone has their opinions. I don't see anything exceptional about Elliott. I just can't talk in absolutes when it comes to football players. Does Henry run upright? Sure.  Latavius Murray runs upright, but he is having modest success. Eric Dickerson ran upright, as did Christian Okoye and Brandon Jacobs to name a few. Just because you're a tall running back doesn't mean that you won't be worth your weight in gold.

Anyway, Start at around 14:25. When the reporter asks why Benjamin was picked instead of Lee (and others), Gettleman answered "Size!"

http://www.panthers.com/media-vault/videos/Dave-Gettleman-You-cant-coach-6-5-240/78e23a4b-199d-4f70-8326-3773ec2c4a42

Edit: A skilled football player that has size trumps a smaller guy, all the other things being equal, in many persons' minds.  I just don't see Gettleman basically stating this as anything out of the ordinary (much less "stupid").  It's all guess work, my friend, at the end of the day.

Of course there have been runners his size that have been good. Just based on what I've seen from Henry, not because of his size but what my eyes tell me, I don't think he'll translate to the speed of the game at this level.

 

Okay, he did say it and still to me that's more of an answer for the media to give to not describe his entire scouting report. In terms of football IQ, route running, body control, my-ball mentality, natural hands, etc. KB was better than Lee in all of those. Regardless, he said this about wide receivers which couldn't be any more different from RB. I see no logical reason as to why a taller RB would be better than a shorter one, and actually see reasons a shorter one is better than a taller one. Convince me, I'm open minded. I just don't see it right now.

 

It's not guesswork at all. For many fans yes it's guesswork because we're not professional football evaluators, but for DG it's not guesswork. I've been wrong about players coming out of the draft before and will be wrong on players in this draft. But I've been completely spot on regarding players as well. I don't know whether I'm more wrong than right or vice versa but I enjoy trying to evaluate their talents and try to anticipate based on what I see whether they'll translate to the NFL. What I've seen out of Henry gives me a hard stance against him having success in the NFL and I'm going to stick behind that until we actually see him in the NFL. Zeke on the other hand will most likely be somebody's franchise back, hopefully ours because he'd be BPA at 30 if he's there.

[t96]

35 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Let's get this straight. At this point, I don' see us taking Henry or Elliott in the first.  We aren't talking Todd Gurley here.  I don't think that G-man will reach for either one.  Now, of course there is the Combine and workouts that may change things.

I have gone on the record by saying that I believe Dodd will be the pick. You might want to also put Johnathan Bullard in your train of thought as well.

I still like Henry though, and if we can get him later, then I am all for it.

If Gurley didn't have the ACL, he was a first overall talent and possibly could've gone top 5. He's a once in a generation talent. Just because these guys aren't on that level doesn't mean he's not worthy of a top pick. I would bet money right now that Zeke goes top 20. And he'd be worth it, in my opinion. So I agree, I don't think either will be the pick. Dodd would be great there as well and I hope he's available then. I like Bullard's versatility and he's a beast in the run game but I'm not sure he'll be a good enough pass rusher to warrant a first round pick. Wouldn't be against it if DG decides on him. I really like Eli Apple. If Hargreaves falls he's gotta be the pick. This may not be a popular pick but I could really see us trading down into the 2nd and taking Ryan Kelly while getting an additional pick (possibly a 3rd).

[Panfan35]

I see Henry as a better Eddie George he is faster and comes with a little more weight. He will be gone in the top of the 2nd round so if we want him it will have to be in the first. 

When g-man was with the Giants he thunder and lightning with Jacobs and I forget the other guy put you get my point. We are a running team we can't keep depending on cam to pound the rock to open up the run game. If he is the pick then they have a plan and I am ok with that.

[The Huddler]

3 minutes ago, Panfan35 said:

I see Henry as a better Eddie George he is faster and comes with a little more weight. He will be gone in the top of the 2nd round so if we want him it will have to be in the first. 

When g-man was with the Giants he thunder and lightning with Jacobs and I forget the other guy put you get my point. We are a running team we can't keep depending on cam to pound the rock to open up the run game. If he is the pick then they have a plan and I am ok with that.

No,  it doesnt have to be in the first.. 

 

Ever heard of a trade? Trade back,  trade up?  Noobsta? 

[Panfan35]

4 minutes ago, The Huddler said:

No,  it doesnt have to be in the first.. 

 

Ever heard of a trade? Trade back,  trade up?  Noobsta? 

We will not trade out of the first round g-man has never done that he values the first pick to much and a trade up to the top of the 2nd will cost too much noobsta!

[emhoward]

I like him fine as a player, he just doesn't fit what we do. A quarter of what makes a player successful is making sure you put him in a system that fits his skill set. 

Henry seems like a big downhill runner, who sees the hole and hits it. I don't know that he's a read option type runner.

[tiger7_88]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/nfl-draft--how-far-might-alabama-running-back-derrick-henry-slip-180349893.html

 

Quote

 

Plus, Henry’s incredible workload — 406 touches in 15 games last season, almost 32 carries a game against SEC defenses and 90 carries in two playoff games — is considered a strike against him.

“They ground him down,” a college scouting director told Shutdown Corner. “Nick [Saban] worked him, rode him to a title. If you look at our league, the number of [400-carry backs who] had big years the next year is small.”

There have been 41 players in NFL history with 400-plus touches, with 17 of those seasons coming since 2000. Of those 17, the average reduction in touches the following season was 27.7 percent; the average total yardage reduction was 36.5 percent. Only one of those backs, Ricky Williams in 2003, followed up a 400-touch season with more touches the following season. And only one, LaDainian Tomlinson in 2003, had more yards the next year.

 

 

 

Quote

 

As for Henry, it’s not all bad by any means.

“He wants to bury you,” the director said. “He runs hard and straight, but he breaks tackles. Good luck with that guy, if you’re a safety. Runs upright, but he’s 6-3; you expect that. Eddie George ran upright. I am OK with that.”

The scouting director added that Henry’s big performances in big games should not go overlooked, that his fourth-quarter runs often were some of his best and that Henry in theory could work in almost any kind of offense.

“They run gap, they run man [blocking schemes],” he said. “They use inside and outside zone, old-school run game — traps, counters, stuff like that. Put him in the Panthers’ offense? My goodness.

“But I could see him in the Sean Payton [offense]. I could see him in the Patriots offense. The Jets, the Cowboys, even the Vikings, a four-minute back you finish teams off with. He has a role for sure.”

The director guessed that “as of right now” he viewed Henry as a “top 50 pick” and “maybe a late 1 [first-round pick] to the right team” but that it depended partially on how well he tested at the scouting combine and “how good his feet look” in all the drills, not just the 40-yard dash.

 

 

Disagree with him on the "put him with the Panthers? my goodness!" reference.  We don't run "old school" pro-sets as he's describing.  Panther's RBs have to read the line as the play develops and plant your foot and cut through the hole that gets created (if any).  "Old school" NFL calls a play with a blocking scheme that expects a hole to develop at a certain gap or position so that's where the RB goes.  Yes, that's what Henry did and did well in college.  But that's not what we do.