KK Short on the new edge Rusher that have been brought in

[VP360]

Lol Jags D was bad last year, nobody think they're a bad defense. They had no morale thanks to Bortles. Everyone knew Cam was hurt and the team, despite close games, knew it. We had no speed on the outside, and everything helps everything else: i.e., everyone needs to do their job. With actual investments in the line now finally, expect KK, as well as the rest of the team, to really step it up.

[Lumps]

3 hours ago, ncfan said:

He had 1 off year

But not going to fault him for it.

 

Was his only "Bad" season since being here

 

And dont use the, he got payed so his effort dropped excuse.  He was one of the top Interior DL in the league the season after he signed the big deal

 

Soon as he was paid he dropped off immensely. His play isn’t anywhere close to his new salary. He’s what...the 10th highest paid DT in the league?

Of course I’d argue he’s only had one great year on 2015 (on one of the best defensive teams, or team in general ever).

With that said perhaps it isn’t that his performance has suffered but he was overpaid to begin with. One good year. But contracts are about timing and need and I think that was a factor as well. 

[Icege]

3 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Soon as he was paid he dropped off immensely. His play isn’t anywhere close to his new salary. He’s what...the 10th highest paid DT in the league?

Of course I’d argue he’s only had one great year on 2015 (on one of the best defensive teams, or team in general ever).

With that said perhaps it isn’t that his performance has suffered but he was overpaid to begin with. One good year. But contracts are about timing and need and I think that was a factor as well. 

 

55 minutes ago, Icege said:

He's had 10.5 sacks in the last two seasons combined. How many DTs are consistently putting out 10+ sack seasons aside from Aaron Donald? Geno Atkins is the closest that I can think of.

Compared to the other top 5 paid DTs, KK's stats over the last 2 seasons:

GP: 30 (3rd-t) [1st - Atkins - 32]
TOT: 91 (3rd-t) [1st - Casey - 122]
    SOLO: 56 (3rd) [1st - Casey - 77]
    AST: 35 (3rd) [1st - Casey - 45]
SACK: 10.5 (5th) [1st - Donald - 31.5]
FF: 3 (2nd-t) [1st - Donald - 9]
PD: 2 (2nd-t)[1st - Cox - 3]
STF: 15 (2nd-t) [1st - Donald - 15]

Short is the 3rd best paid player of that group, which when you compare them side-by-side looks about right. I'm not seeing the reasoning behind the "produce or get cut" sentiment that some are sharing. He had an insanely good 2015, but has been solidly consistent otherwise.

Didn't KK also have an ankle issue that started early on in the season? That likely also never went away, especially when 300+ pounds are using it to springboard into another 300+ pounds.

 

[Lumps]

Not taking into account entire contracts and structures I believe KK had the 10th highest cap hit in 2017 and highest cap hit of all DTs in 2018 and second only to Donald year 2019 cap hit, on track for 4th biggest cap hit in 2020, 3rd in 2021.

I’m not looking at the structure of the entire contract but he is clearly overpaid/underperforming.

Bottom line, KK isn’t being paid to be a ‘solid’ player or even good. He should be great.

[Icege]

10 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Not taking into account entire contracts and structures I believe KK had the 10th highest cap hit in 2017 and highest cap hit of all DTs in 2018 and second only to Donald year 2019 cap hit, on track for 4th biggest cap hit in 2020, 3rd in 2021.

I’m not looking at the structure of the entire contract but he is clearly overpaid/underperforming.

Bottom line, KK isn’t being paid to be a ‘solid’ player or even good. He should be great.

Are the other x3 top 5 DTs not named Aaron Donald (who made $40M last season) overpaid/underperforming as well then?

[Lumps]

18 minutes ago, Icege said:

Are the other x3 top 5 DTs not named Aaron Donald (who made $40M last season) overpaid/underperforming as well then?

Just looking at the guys surrounding KKs contract (over him and under him) in year 2018 alone we have (not including Donald but we should since he’s there are well);

Fletcher Cox

Geno Atkins

Marcell Dareus

Gerald McCoy

J. Casey

M Jackson

Suh

 

Most these guys made less than KK. Only Dareus preformed worse than KK and that’s with KK being 4th highest paid.

I’m not going back a year when he was the highest paid DT and compare those stats but I’d be willing to bet DTs who performed the same costs 5 million less.

It’s all relative to the money paid. If every year since 2015 we can find DTs preforming the same for 5 million or more less would you say that’s underperforming?

Again contracts are timing as well and that is what KK was. Star was gone and no one was left. That’s where the premium is coming from but that doesn’t mean performance wise he’s playing his worth.

Also as I’ve said Star ate up blockers. Not only did KK fall off, Luke slipped a little with Star out as well. I’d argue Star had more non stat friendly qualities than KK, not saying he should’ve been kept instead just making a point.

[Icege]

40 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Just looking at the guys surrounding KKs contract (over him and under him) in year 2018 alone we have (not including Donald but we should since he’s there are well);

Fletcher Cox

Geno Atkins

Marcell Dareus

Gerald McCoy

J. Casey

M Jackson

Suh

 

Most these guys made less than KK. Only Dareus preformed worse than KK and that’s with KK being 4th highest paid.

I’m not going back a year when he was the highest paid DT and compare those stats but I’d be willing to bet DTs who performed the same costs 5 million less.

It’s all relative to the money paid. If every year since 2015 we can find DTs preforming the same for 5 million or more less would you say that’s underperforming?

 

None of this answered my question, and it included a couple of misleading statements that I'll take the time to correct but will not further discuss to avoid misdirection of the topic at hand.

Again contracts are timing as well and that is what KK was. Star was gone and no one was left. That’s where the premium is coming from but that doesn’t mean performance wise he’s playing his worth.

Star Lotulelei's 5th year option was exercised on his rookie contract. KK, being the 2nd rounder, did not have said option year. Vernon Butler had been drafted the season prior and had not yet been determined to be a bust. Kyle Love was also brought in. Star was not gone. There was depth at the position. Short was already a year removed from his insane 2015 campaign when he got his second contract. 

Also as I’ve said Star ate up blockers. Not only did KK fall off, Luke slipped a little with Star out as well. I’d argue Star had more non stat friendly qualities than KK, not saying he should’ve been kept instead just making a point.

Until last season, Luke had not played a full season since 2014 when he had 171 tackles.

2015: 13 games, 118 total tackles (76 solo, 42 assists, 7 TFL), 5 QB hits, 1 sack, 2 FF, 10 PD, 4 INTs (1 TD)
2016: 10 games, 102 (71 solo, 31 assists, 6 TFL, ), 4 QB hits, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 6 PD, 1 INT
2017: 15 games, 125 (74 solo, 51 assists, 7 TFL), 5 QB hits, 1.5 sacks, 1 FF, 6 PD, 3 INTs
2018: 16 games,  130 total tackles (93 solo, 37 assists, 20 TFL), 5 QB hits, 2 sacks, 2 FF, 6 PD, 1 INT

Which one of those seasons did Luke fall off during, exactly? 2018 he had more tackles, sacks, and forced fumbles. Had 2 less INTs. Equal QB Hits + pass deflections.

Now for my original question before we went down that path:

1 hour ago, Icege said:

Are the other x3 top 5 DTs not named Aaron Donald (who made $40M last season) overpaid/underperforming as well then?

Geno Atkins, Jurrell Casey, and Fletcher Cox are the other top 5 paid DTs in the league not including Aaron Donald and Kawann Short.

Are they underperforming and overpaid as well?

[ncfan]

57 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Just looking at the guys surrounding KKs contract (over him and under him) in year 2018 alone we have (not including Donald but we should since he’s there are well);

Fletcher Cox

Geno Atkins

Marcell Dareus

Gerald McCoy

J. Casey

M Jackson

Suh

 

Most these guys made less than KK. Only Dareus preformed worse than KK and that’s with KK being 4th highest paid.

I’m not going back a year when he was the highest paid DT and compare those stats but I’d be willing to bet DTs who performed the same costs 5 million less.

It’s all relative to the money paid. If every year since 2015 we can find DTs preforming the same for 5 million or more less would you say that’s underperforming?

Again contracts are timing as well and that is what KK was. Star was gone and no one was left. That’s where the premium is coming from but that doesn’t mean performance wise he’s playing his worth.

Also as I’ve said Star ate up blockers. Not only did KK fall off, Luke slipped a little with Star out as well. I’d argue Star had more non stat friendly qualities than KK, not saying he should’ve been kept instead just making a point.

Again

No arguing his play slipped Last year.

But the year before, in 2017.  AFTER he got his big pay day.  He still performed among the top.  Only really Donald and Atkins were the Only ones who outperformed him. After his pay day

 

So freaking out off one bad year.

By your logic.  The only player on this team that deserves their contract should be Luke.  Everyone else by your logic, including Cam, should have been cut 2 years after their extension.  Trai Turner would be cut, etc etc.

 

Its rare to stay the top 2 at your position every year.  The rare Donalds are about the only one.  

By your logic, we shouldnt attempt to extend Bradberry next year nor anyone else coming up at the end of their contract, because they arent one of the once in a generation type guys and will maintain the top 2 at their position.

 

And Luke's play really didnt take that far a step back if it did at all.

He was the ONLY LB in the top 15 in TFL category Last year.  At #3 overall

[PantherGuy]

7 hours ago, The Huddler said:

feel good fluff!! its all we got better enjoy it!!

 

Pi for the gif

[t96]

7 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I accidently looked at his stats backwards looking at his first two seasons instead of his last two. That's what happens when you're running off of 3 hours of sleep. 

Two years ago he had 7.5 sacks. That's solid. Not game changing, but solid. We paid him based off of his 11 sack season during his contract year. Right now, that 11 sack season is looking like an anomaly. It's looking like we paid a good player like an elite player. I just hope he gets back to being "good" this year.

Aside from Donald who is a freak, 11 sacks is a shitload for a DT. Look at Suh’s career sacks stats, who has been consistently elite most his career. 7.5 is a lot for a DT and KK has been absolutely elite every year from 2014/15 until just this past season where he was closer to average. Last season was absolutely a huge disappointment, but it’s just one year and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. However, if he repeats it this year in a what have you done for me lately league, he may be out.

[LinvilleGorge]

10 minutes ago, t96 said:

Aside from Donald who is a freak, 11 sacks is a shitload for a DT. Look at Suh’s career sacks stats, who has been consistently elite most his career. 7.5 is a lot for a DT and KK has been absolutely elite every year from 2014/15 until just this past season where he was closer to average. Last season was absolutely a huge disappointment, but it’s just one year and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. However, if he repeats it this year in a what have you done for me lately league, he may be out.

This is where I am. In a league with a hard salary cap, you can't have a guy eating up $17M of that cap and not being a major impact player. QB is the only position on the field that you can justify that type of money for a non-elite player.

[FuFuLamePoo]

8 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

What would help our pass rush more than anything is Short actually being in that race. He's paid to be a disruptive force but he played like a JAG last year. That Pro Bowl appearance was a joke.

Not saying you don't have a point but he's literally been the only legitimate pass rush threat we've had the last two seasons. I think that has played an impact.

[LinvilleGorge]

Just now, FuFuLamePoo said:

Not saying you don't have a point but he's literally been the only legitimate pass rush threat we've had the last two seasons. I think that has played an impact.

I think a big part of our struggles last season was that he wasn't a legit pass rush threat. You need your big money DL effecting the QB. I hope he was dealing with undisclosed injuries or setting last season. A bunch of posters are jumping to his defense in this thread, but honestly he just was not good last season. 

[Icege]

12 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

This is where I am. In a league with a hard salary cap, you can't have a guy eating up $17M of that cap and not being a major impact player. QB is the only position on the field that you can justify that type of money for a non-elite player.

Slightly off-topic but something I've been wondering how other folks feel, what do you think of agents trying to get players (ie: Wilson in Seattle) %s of the salary cap rather than hard amounts? Aside from being a positive for the players, part of me wonders how quickly that can lead to a team being more hamstrung than previously anticipated (based on how we would see the cap rise and sometimes go, "SWEET! AN EXTRA $6M TO GO SHOPPIIIIIING!!!).