clearing up this kyle allen vs cam newton battle

[weyco2000]

7 hours ago, Saca312 said:

this isn't even a remotely plausible hypothetical in general.

anyways, let me apply this with an analogy of cars. so basically cam's a lambo and he's in the shop. you don't know if you totaled that lambo or not, but you've been rough with it and it got to the point it needed fixing. 

meanwhile at your place you got a new honda accord sitting pretty at home. it works fine. it does its job. but it is no lambo, but it works.

now, if the lambo comes out and it turns out it's as good as totaled, then yes I'll keep the honda accord running because there's no other choice.

but if that lambo comes out and it's working at it's prior state, you bet i'd be driving that accord over that volvo any day of the week. sure, it costs more to maintain that lambo, but its a far superior car compared to the accord.

 

Who's the Volvo?

[Wolfpack352]

Laughing at those still comparing, even tho Kyle hasn't had near as many games to prove if he can evolve into a "lambo".  Heck forget that, he might evolve into mutha fudging Optimus Prime and stomp on the Lambo?  Every top quarterback has to start somewhere to prove it.  And there quarterbacks who started good and declined, it happens, look at Eli Manning....wins superbowl and then tanks.  

[Darvinsun]

I have to stay away from this board. Can we not talk about Cam. He not even playing.

[MHS831]

10 hours ago, jfra78 said:

Also it's okay to hope that Kyle Allen can be a good starting QB if we have to move on from Cam.

And it's okay to hope Cam comes back 100% and Kyle goes back to holding a clipboard.

 

 

 

From my point of view, this is the point most were making when the Cam defenders came out of the woodwork.  There are many variables, however, and many are not considering them all.

"BY FAR" 

For example, if Allen demonstrates that he can complete 70% of his passes and works on his ball security, do you sign Cam Newton to a $150m deal in 2021 when his body is 32?  He has been hit more than any other QB in the NFL-ever---by far--and that article was written BEFORE the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

https://247sports.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/Article/Stats-show-Cam-Newton-has-been-hit-more-than-any-NFL-quarterback-by-far-52054947/

You cannot ignore injuries lately.  Cam has been taking a RB beating for nearly a decade and the injuries could be the beginning of the end---not a temporary setback.  I have argued with the emotional chest pounders about this, but few if any athlete walks away on his own terms.  I wondered if Cam's recent press conference was not to convince himself as much as anyone else.

 

[grimesgoat]

5 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

That's just it. That's the way YOU grew up. This isn't about if it helped you win games it's just how he is. It comes natural. Trying to place your values on the new generation becomes one of those lost in translation kind of vibes. But we have seen it all before and I believe it is the exact same thing. Your generation probably loved rock music and thought it was the coolest thing ever, but the generation before yours probably hated it and thought it was trash. Same with hip hop music and so on. 

Football is a young mans game. And the attitudes around it will always reflect that.

 

I don't think things have changed too dramatically.  I still see guys get first downs and don't feel a need to celebrate or play to the cameras.  They just get back to work.

Likewise I still see guys score touchdowns and actually celebrate with and/or congratulate their teammates like it was the olden days.

I don't watch post-game pressers, but I bet there weren't too many "new generation" guys wearing blouses and scarves to meet the press.

Basically if your not winning games, but continue to do things to draw attention to yourself in a team game, if would not surprise me if some teammates find it unprofessional or irritating. 

[raz]

the patriots have been dominating the league with brady throwing those kinds of passes

[mav1234]

1 hour ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

risking a ban here but i have some interesting statistics to share. all data pulled from nocheckdowns.com

16 of allen’s 24 completions came behind the LOS or within 5 yards of the LOS. 9 of those were at or behind the LOS.

median depth of target was 4.5 yards which is low, giving us a depth adjusted accuracy of 38.6%. this might explain why he’s not throwing interceptions (though nocheckdowns does consider two of his passes from yesterday “interceptable”)

1/6 on passes traveling farther than 20 yards downfield. all of his incompletions beyond 20 yards were graded as “inaccurate” which is fair.

he’s being asked to do very little. the defense and mccaffrey are the real story here.

Cool website.  Last week he was one of the highest rated QBs in depth adjust accuracy at >81%. He had only 3 inaccurate passes.  But he didn't even attempt anything >20 yards.

He seems to be taking whatever the defense gives him and not trying to force it.  At some point, he is going to need to make a bit more happen. Wonder if the deep balls will come along for him, or if he just lacks the arm strength to drive the ball downfield.

I don't think anyone has disputed that, especially this last game, he really benefited from the rest of the team.

Why would that post risk a ban anyway?

[mav1234]

6 minutes ago, bull123 said:

Don’t discount that he is taking shots down the field

He is very rarely taking shots down the field.  To be fair, it is often better to take what the defense gives you. 

 

3 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

in his two games cam took 8 shots 20 or more yards downfield. allen has taken 7. cam completed 3 and allen completed 1. if neither is particularly effective downfield (though statistically cam was more effective than allen) then i dont think it's fair to say that allen is opening up the offense with the threat of the deep ball any more than cam did in weeks 1 and 2. i've not seen the coach's angle so theoretically it could be a case of defenses daring cam to throw deep while deeply respecting allen's deep ball but if so his inaccuracy demonstrates that it would be a terrible strategy to do so

Sample size is really too small.  He definitely does not have Cam's canon.  But he has made some decent throws.  So we will see how he develops.  Luckily we are winning, so no need for Cam to rush back.  Hopefully we will have a 100% Cam when he recovers. 

[MasterAwesome]

 

1 hour ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

yeah idk about that one. i saw him praised for overthrowing samuel on that deepest attempt and i saw praise for the shot to samuel that ended in PI that was woefully underthrown. maybe those people aren't representative of the whole but one thing i haven't seen is this kind of critical take on his performance in houston. the qb spot is a clear weakness right now and that's not good for the longterm outlook. hopefully what we saw from the defense on sunday is what we will see going forward.

If you consider this an overthrow/inaccurate pass, then I'm not sure how any QB can live up to your standards.

(I've never posted a GIF before so hopefully this works)

Edit: nope that did not work...please hold for technical difficulties.

[TheRumGone]

1 minute ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

that's my biggest thing here. the sample size was too small after arizona and it's too small after houston. some people really need to tap the breaks with this "do we cut or trade cam now that we have allen" stuff because it's shortsighted at best and driven by ulterior motives at worst. the game manager stuff he's done (minus the fumbles lol) has been exciting, even if it's not "potential franchise quarterback" exciting while there have been some red flags that need to be monitored. right now i think it's appropriate to be cautiously optimistic that we've found a backup who can step in and not immediately lose the game himself because he's so outclassed by the competition. that's important when you have a quarterback who is coming back from multiple injuries. it's too soon to go much further than that imo

The only reason I can see wanting to move on from Cam if Allen continues to progress is a $$$ thing. A couple posters have mentioned it. It’s something I’ve thought about as well. What we could do with the money Cam would get on his next contract to build the team up even more. But you have to be damn sure Kyle can be a little more than a game manager and your defense and run game have to be elite long term. He has to make big time plays in big time moments to win games.
 

I really think it’s gonna come down to what we see from Cam when he gets back. If teams are stacking the box and Cam can’t connect deep with consistency we are in trouble. You can’t give a guy 100+ million contract with those deficiencies. And it’s fair to say Cam is injury prone at this point. These are things the front office is going to be thinking about this season and next. I really, really hope Cam comes back and blows everyone away. Because if our defense and run game plays like it did the past two games we have a serious chance at a run in the playoffs.

[mav1234]

8 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

that's my biggest thing here. the sample size was too small after arizona and it's too small after houston. some people really need to tap the breaks with this "do we cut or trade cam now that we have allen" stuff because it's shortsighted at best and driven by ulterior motives at worst. the game manager stuff he's done (minus the fumbles lol) has been exciting, even if it's not "potential franchise quarterback" exciting while there have been some red flags that need to be monitored. right now i think it's appropriate to be cautiously optimistic that we've found a backup who can step in and not immediately lose the game himself because he's so outclassed by the competition. that's important when you have a quarterback who is coming back from multiple injuries. it's too soon to go much further than that imo

there are way too many people on this forum willing to claim Allen is one thing or another, when we have no f'ing clue... I don't get it.  He's made some exciting plays and had some big mistakes... we'll see.

Regardless, we could do worse for a backup behind Cam.  At least it is looking like we can stay competitive for a few more weeks.

[mav1234]

7 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

 

If you consider this an overthrow/inaccurate pass, then I'm not sure how any QB can live up to your standards.

(I've never posted a GIF before so hopefully this works)

Edit: nope that did not work...please hold for technical difficulties.

slightly overthrown... Perhaps with more reps that is a completion, but it is overthrown, albeit barely.

[MasterAwesome]

4 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

out of reach of the fastest guy on the field. it's not egregious but there's no need to sugarcoat it.

Okay I got it to work...look at it and tell me that's out of reach.  "Not perfectly in the bread basket" does not = overthrown.  That is more than catchable for Samuel and if it was actually thrown any shorter, then the defender would have been in a position to break it up.

[MasterAwesome]

3 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

slightly overthrown... Perhaps with more reps that is a completion, but it is overthrown, albeit barely.

It's put EXACTLY where it needs to be to give Samuel a chance to catch it without the defender breaking it up.