The reason the QB should ID the MIke (if possible)

[MHS831]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Side Note: @MHS831, I think you might enjoy this one.

The highest paid Offensive Line coaches in college football (2020 edition)

Holy Crap!!! I remember when head coaches did not make that.  WOW.  And the names....

[Wes21]

Good work OP.  I would say regardless of who ever identifies the Mike, most of it ultimately falls in the lap of the offensive line coach.  He is the guy that designs the run game and prepares the QB or the C for the calls.  He is the one that is supposed to know if the backside guard can reach block or whether a certain defensive player or alignment can or can't be blocked a certain way.

[onmyown]

10 hours ago, OneBadCat said:

One thing I blame Rivera for is  taking the quickest route to success with Cam. We were on the way to a dynamic offense with Chud, and we should have kept Cam on that path. After that it seemed we were pretty much RPO, play action, and screen passes. Probably because Ron was trying to keep his job.

Ron tightened up on Newton many times and he did very poorly. Can’t remember what season but the first several games he tried to make him a more traditional QB. Then he took the leash off after complete failure and Cam was back to being a stud. Cam is what he is and isn’t what he isn’t. Can’t take away what makes him special and expect him to do what makes someone does that makes someone else special. with all that said Rivera still didn’t use him correctly, mainly the passing schemes and expecting a coach like Shula to be creative enough and a good fit for Cams style. Even CMC isn’t used correctly, he’s a perfect example. A coach like Brady should’ve been sought after day 1.

[MHS831]

37 minutes ago, onmyown said:

Ron tightened up on Newton many times and he did very poorly. Can’t remember what season but the first several games he tried to make him a more traditional QB. Then he took the leash off after complete failure and Cam was back to being a stud. Cam is what he is and isn’t what he isn’t. Can’t take away what makes him special and expect him to do what makes someone does that makes someone else special. with all that said Rivera still didn’t use him correctly, mainly the passing schemes and expecting a coach like Shula to be creative enough and a good fit for Cams style. Even CMC isn’t used correctly, he’s a perfect example. A coach like Brady should’ve been sought after day 1.

Good post. If you are going to go with Cam running and taking chances, etc---the stuff that made him Cam, then you have to realize that a 10-year career is about what you should expect. 

[Mr. Scot]

We've discussed it before. Rivera used Newton the same way Buddy Ryan used Randall Cunningham.

Both guys were basically asked to make two or three big plays a game while their head coach counted on the defense to handle the rest.

Ryan never won a championship with that method. Neither did Rivera though for one season, he came close. After that season, the offense was figured out and Rivera's chosen OC had no counterpunch.

[BrianS]

While I can appreciate the effort and intellectual pursuit, the bottom line is that offense wasn't our problem in 2019.  We were slightly below average, yes.  With a backup QB.

Our season was lost here, on defense:

When a defense with a healthy Luke finishes second to last in scoring defense, offense isn't the issue.  In fact, only two teams last year had an offense that could have scored enough points to keep us in games:  Baltimore and San Fran.  Everyone else scored (on average) fewer points per game than we gave up.

Painful to watch man.  Just painful.

[mav1234]

43 minutes ago, BrianS said:

While I can appreciate the effort and intellectual pursuit, the bottom line is that offense wasn't our problem in 2019.  We were slightly below average, yes.  With a backup QB.

Our season was lost here, on defense:

When a defense with a healthy Luke finishes second to last in scoring defense, offense isn't the issue.  In fact, only two teams last year had an offense that could have scored enough points to keep us in games:  Baltimore and San Fran.  Everyone else scored (on average) fewer points per game than we gave up.

Painful to watch man.  Just painful.

Especially when one considers that we had Ron "Defensive Mastermind" Rivera, heh.

[MHS831]

8 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

We've discussed it before. Rivera used Newton the same way Buddy Ryan used Randall Cunningham.

Both guys were basically asked to make two or three big plays a game while their head coach counted on the defense to handle the rest.

Ryan never won a championship with that method. Neither did Rivera though for one season, he came close. After that season, the offense was figured out and Rivera's chosen OC had no counterpunch.

I would add that RC was able to convert to more of a pocket passer as he aged--something I do not see Cam doing.

[MHS831]

Brian, thanks for the analysis and depth of thought.  You are more right than most here would be willing to admit.  Our defense was bad.

The point of the thread has strayed a bit--reading the Mike and why it is done--for the most part.  It seems that it could have had a lot more to do with the OL's demise than anyone thought.

Liked the table--interesting.  Our DT play made it impossible for Luke to do his job. 

 

An Analysis of our DT' season and why we sucked:

McCoy was just looking for sacks--watch his film--there is little gap awareness.  His stats?  15 solo Tackles, 5 sacks.  Most people say, "5 sacks for a DT?  That is great".  McCoy took 63% of the snaps on defense and averaged less than 1 solo tackle per game--8.5 fewer solo tackles than his career average.   That is what $8m buys you in free agency.

Everyone rips D. Poe, who has about the same salary.  From the NT position in 5 fewer games, Poe had 15 solo tackles and 4 sacks--nearly identical to McCoy.  Poe played only 36% of the snap counts while McCoy played 63%.   NTs make fewer tackles and get fewer sacks. While Poe's numbers are not worth the $9m price tag he carries--he OUTPLAYED McCoy from the NT position by nearly doubling McCoy's production from the NT position, if you average the # of plays/production.

Kyle Love played in 15 games ($1.3m salary) and made 8 tackles, none were sacks.  He was the most unproductive DT we had.  He was a non factor for the Panthers.  He played in 37% of the snap counts on the season.

Perhaps the most hated DT on the roster was Vernon Butler.  However, in on only 40% of the snaps (McCoy was 68%), Butler outplayed McCoy with many fewer opportunities.  Butler had  22 solo tackles---6 sacks.  So the fact that RR played McCoy more than Butler shows that RR s) Loves him some veterans, b) does not use data to make decisions.  Remember flipping off fans?  Can you imagine how frustrating that was?

We all know that RR's use of Cam has probably led to the end of his career.  We feared that his riding CMC would do the same--but we may have not understood that his stupidity in terms of the DT rotation could have led to Luke's retirement.  McCoy was here as a Buccaneer (his words, and we put a C on his chest) trying to steal a few million bucks from some sucker before he retires.  He was not stuffing the run or keeping blockers off his hall of fame LB--he was out for McCoy.

Personally, I think someone is going to grab Butler in free agency and have a good player.  That is how RR hurt this team--never developing talent--trusting veterans who were looking out for #1--not Cam--themselves.

 

[Mr. Scot]

8 hours ago, mav1234 said:

Especially when one considers that we had Ron "Defensive Mastermind" Rivera, heh.

Did we?

I'm not sure we'll ever know how much of that disaster was Rivera and how much was Eric Washington.

We know Rivera wanted to rehab Washington's career and help him become a DC again, but boy did that blow up in his face.

It's probably best for both of them that they've gone their separate ways now.

[Snake]

On 2/22/2020 at 8:17 AM, MHS831 said:

I would add that RC was able to convert to more of a pocket passer as he aged--something I do not see Cam doing.

Yeah I don't think Cam has the accuracy to ever do that. Even when his shoulder wasn't jacked up he sailed balls. So much so Dave just drafted tall WRs to counter that. 

[PantherGuy]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:23 AM, MHS831 said:

The more I try to understand the complexity of heavy Zone blocking Schemes in the NFL, and how they adjust to ever-changing defenses, the dumber I get about it.  So having said that--please understand that this thread is about the stuff we don't see clearly watching TV.  I do know that in football, the player who looks to have blown an assignment or missed an audible is often NOT the person responsible.  In this case, primarily. understanding the C and QB position in relation to calling blocking schemes is discussed.

Cam never called the schemes (I am not sure what tense to use; since this is looking back, I will use the past tense).  That was left to Kalil, a very smart, seasoned center.  Understanding this, the Panthers overpaid for Paradis; one of the reasons they liked him?  He had been calling the schemes in Denver. Why is this important?  The Mike call tells the OL where to aim--it guides their angles in the blocking scheme.  It is not always the middle LB, but more of the "map center" for zone blocking angles.  It gets very complicated, and defenses do all they can do to confuse the scheme. 

Why do some QBs call the Mike?  Why did we rarely see Cam do it?  Different theories, but the Center understands blocking schemes and the QB has the best view.  In addition, a QB can manipulate the blocking schemes by identifying the Mike and changing the play--or knowing when to get out of a play.  That is not something the Center can do.  So ideally, you would prefer your QB to identify the Mike, stay with the play or change it based on that call, and the C can call the schemes.  However, the QB must also read the secondary and watch the clock. For example, a C may need help from the G reaching a shaded nose, notifying the T is on his own.  He may call for an X block, etc.  Still based on the Mike.  That is how I understand it.  This video features a funny verbal exchange where a LB yells at Romo, "I am not the Mike!"  It is funny because the Mike is who the C or QB says it is---and the defense has no say in it.  Usually the MLB, but not always.

 

Why is it better for the QB to identify the Mike?  During the pre-snap read, he may see a sign that there is a blitz coming.  He can then switch the Mike, directing the OL to take different (opposite) angles.  He could leave the Mike call as is, and change the play.  He could trade the TE, motion a back to reveal which LB is in coverage, etc.  To manage the blocking schemes and to pre read the secondary requires a lot of film study and an OL that operates as one unit.  Communication is key.

So in 2018 or 2019, I did not see Cam or Allen calling the Mike.  That does not mean it was not done--I just did not see it.  If you are relying on a new center with a rookie committee at LT and a backup RT at LG, you can see why defenses often sent pressure up the offensive left side.  Were Little/Daley bad?  I can say they were left on an island a lot.   In Super Bowl 50, the Broncos schemed to leave Remmers on an island vs. Miller.  Great defensive scheming.  Rivera/Cam/Kalil did not adjust, but Miller was often off the line, so Kalil would have trouble making that call. 

I am not making a statement about Cam here--many teams use centers and not all teams hope to evolve into a situation in which the QB calls the defenses--Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rivers, for example, are not great athletes---they know how to put their athletes in place to increase their chances for success. Romo, as is shown in the video and evidenced by his color commentary, was not a great athlete--but man, he was smart.  In Carolina, they did not seem to attempt to develop this skill in Cam, relying on his athleticism to overcome obstacles a simple line shift might have prevented.  Furthermore, Cam was asked to do so much more, such as the option and rushing.  They never developed Cam to prepare him for old age--he was prepared to win that day, even if it meant his career would be shortened. (My opinion, based on the way he was used and no observable development in fundamentals).

Again, there is more I need to learn about this, but the more I read about this, the more I think some of our OL woes could have been avoided with better QB coaching and better pre-snap reading.  I am interested to hear what others think/know about this.

 

My understanding was that the QB identified the Mike simply because he is the leader of the offense. He takes charge of most other things, so why not the Mike call too? Maybe the QB's better perspective of the defense because of a bit of extra distance between himself and the defense or because he's standing up makes him a better choice to make the call, rather than the center. Beyond that, I don't know if it really makes a difference who IDs the Mike. As others have said, the offense kind of needs to ID the Mike regardless of the blocking scheme because it still anchors the scheme. I imagine it's still more important in a man-to-man scheme, but it's relevant to zone blocking too.

The book Take Your Eye Off the Ball by Pat Kirwan is a bit dated, but it has a great chapter on offensive line play that speaks to this question.