Breaking Down the DT Play in 2019

[kungfoodude]

It's a little hard to measure the complete effectiveness of DT's when you just look at tackles and sacks. There are other things to consider like QB pressures, pass rush win rates, etc. Then there are the factors that are very difficult to measure statistically at all and show up more on tape such as commanding double teams consistently, creating push at the line, gap discipline, etc, etc. 

 

[45catfan]

Our DT play looked something similar to this:

[MHS831]

22 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

It's a little hard to measure the complete effectiveness of DT's when you just look at tackles and sacks. There are other things to consider like QB pressures, pass rush win rates, etc. Then there are the factors that are very difficult to measure statistically at all and show up more on tape such as commanding double teams consistently, creating push at the line, gap discipline, etc, etc. 

 

yes---I think the best way to measure their effectiveness is to look at Luke's productivity--when they surrender 5.2 yards per rush, no matter who is making the tackles, someone is getting whooped up front.

[45catfan]

6 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

yes---I think the best way to measure their effectiveness is to look at Luke's productivity--when they surrender 5.2 yards per rush, no matter who is making the tackles, someone is getting whooped up front.

When your SS (typically the last line of defense) is second on the team in total tackles, 12th in the entire League, 2nd among non-LBs  and 3rd in solo tackles, then yeah, your defensive front is made of paper mache.  

[davos]

It's worth noting that most of Vernon's snaps were once offenses were a bit worn down.  Just from an eye-test on game days, we just couldn't collapse pockets.  We haven't been able to do that effectively in about 3 years IMO. 

Most of the guys are done/end of deals and we are likely not re-signing so we basically have:

KK, Poe (without a doubt will get cut) and some guy named Woodrow Hamilton. 

[mc52beast]

If you’re trusting Marty to turn this mess into success you should seek mental help because he has done nothing to show he’s capable of rebuilding anything except maybe Legos

[kungfoodude]

50 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

yes---I think the best way to measure their effectiveness is to look at Luke's productivity--when they surrender 5.2 yards per rush, no matter who is making the tackles, someone is getting whooped up front.

No doubt but if you have one weakness or more than one weakness on that DL, then the cascade effect is going to be pretty bad. Same with the OL. It only takes one or two players to just not be getting it done and the whole unit is going to suffer pretty badly. On the DL, I think it was basically most of the unit struggling. 

I think there were some parts that were good but the sum of all those parts was extremely bad. Outside of Short, I don't think I would care if anyone was back from the unit. I wouldn't mind a guy like Butler on a cheap deal or McCoy back on a cheap deal. I highly doubt you see either of those guys back, however.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, mc52beast said:

If you’re trusting Marty to turn this mess into success you should seek mental help because he has done nothing to show he’s capable of rebuilding anything except maybe Legos

You have no idea of his Lego skills, so I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself. He might suck at rebuilding those too.

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

yes---I think the best way to measure their effectiveness is to look at Luke's productivity--when they surrender 5.2 yards per rush, no matter who is making the tackles, someone is getting whooped up front.

You can't argue against this. We lost KK early, Poe later. McCoy was looking to pad stats and get his next FA check somewhere based on sacks. Love was a backup/roleplayer who didn't have his best year. Big Vern... he finally got it when it came to the stats sheet but all of these guys were missing the most important job of a DT: clog up that center of the field and tie up their blockers.

Everyone wants to be a star, no one wants to do the dirty work anymore.

[TheSpecialJuan]

6 hours ago, MHS831 said:

PANTHER'S DTs in 2019: AS BAD AS IT GETS

To me, nothing reveals how RR's bias and lack of analytics is demonstrated more than the moronic use of his DTs last season.  Most agree that the DT position was perhaps a worse problem than the OL last season--allowing an average of 5.2 yards per rushing attempt. 

............................An Analysis of our DT' season and why we sucked:.........................

THE FREE AGENT SAVIOR: GERALD McCOY

McCoy  should have taken Panther fans to dinner and a movie before he did to us what he did.  He was just looking for sacks--watch his film--there is little gap awareness.  His stats?  15 solo Tackles, 5 sacks.  Most people say, "5 sacks for a DT?  That is great".  McCoy took 63% of the snaps on defense and averaged less than 1 solo tackle per game--8.5 fewer solo tackles than his career average.   That is what $8m buys you in free agency.  We should have signed Hatfield instead (get it? Hatfield and McCoy?)

POE: NOT AS BAD AS McCOY

Everyone rips D. Poe, who has about the same salary as McCoy .  From the NT position in 5 fewer games, Poe had 15 solo tackles and 4 sacks--nearly identical to McCoy.  Poe played only 36% of the snap counts while McCoy played 63%.   NTs make fewer tackles and get fewer sacks. While Poe's numbers are not worth the $9m price tag he carries--he OUTPLAYED McCoy from the NT position by nearly doubling McCoy's production from the NT position, if you average the # of plays/production.  In case you are interested, Star was making more $$ in Buffalo but had less production than Poe.  Star took 40% of the snaps and had 12 solo tackles and 2 sacks in 16 games.  What happens to the hog mollies once they get paid? 

LOVE:  BREAKING UP IS HARD TO DO

Kyle Love played in 15 games ($1.3m salary) and made 8 tackles, none were sacks.  He was the most unproductive DT we had.  He was a non factor for the Panthers.  He played in 37% of the snap counts on the season.  Career over at 33--he was a good value here.

BIG VERN:  THE BUTLER DID IT

Perhaps the most hated DT on the roster over the past few years has been first-rounder Vernon Butler.  However, in on only 40% of the snaps (McCoy was in 23% more), Butler outplayed McCoy with many fewer opportunities.  Butler had  22 solo tackles---6 sacks.  So the fact that RR played McCoy more than Butler shows that RR a) Loves him some veterans (bias), b) does not use data to make decisions, and c) is not the defensive genius he thinks he is.   Remember Vern's flipping off fans?  Can you imagine how frustrating that was?  I am wondering if that was not meant for RR more than fans.

RIVERBOAT RON:  SO GLAD THAT SHIP HAS SAILED

We all know that RR's use of Cam has probably expedited Cam's eventual retirement.  We feared that his riding CMC would do the same--but we may have not understood that his stupidity in terms of the DT rotation could have led to Luke's retirement.  McCoy was here as a Buccaneer (his words, and we put a C on his chest) trying to steal a few million bucks from some sucker before he retires. He was padding his stats for Canton--so he was focusing on sacks.  He was not stuffing the run or keeping blockers off his hall of fame LB--he was out for McCoy.  Ron let him use us, and when we could not stop the run, Ron could not bench McCoy.

Personally, I think someone is going to grab Butler in free agency and have a good player.  That is how RR hurt this team--never developing talent--trusting veterans who were looking out for #1--not Cam--themselves.

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?

1.  It seems that our DTs tend to decline after getting a big payday.

2.  Ron's bias for veterans and perhaps his preconceived opinion of Butler caused him to start the wrong 3/5 tech.

3. Dontari Poe was not great, but in 11 games he outplayed Star Lotulelei in 16 games. 

4. We will never know how much the DT lack of play (5.2 yards per rush- who does that?) contributed to Luke's decision.

5. We need to move on from all of our DTs.  If we keep anyone, it should be BUTLER.

6.  DT is a bigger need than OL.  At least we have some developmental players on the OL.

7.  In free agency, you do not necessarily get more by spending more.  Do your homework, Marty, because this is a train wreck.

8.  We need young, aggressive, high motor DTs. 

9.  Their job is not to sack the QB when they are giving up 5.2 yards per rushing attempt.   Some disciplined DTs would be nice.

10.  DTs are (BY FAR) our biggest need.  We need 4 of them.

 

Toodles

 

 

 

 

 

well done, but how did Woodrow Hamilton fare? that's what people really wanna know

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

You can't argue against this. We lost KK early, Poe later. McCoy was looking to pad stats and get his next FA check somewhere based on sacks. Love was a backup/roleplayer who didn't have his best year. Big Vern... he finally got it when it came to the stats sheet but all of these guys were missing the most important job of a DT: clog up that center of the field and tie up their blockers.

Everyone wants to be a star, no one wants to do the dirty work anymore.

I actually believe had KK and Poe not gone down with injury, we probably aren't talking full rebuild right now. I think people really underestimated what the loss of KK did to that unit. McCoy and Butler would have been great depth guys.

[Toomers]

17 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

You can't argue against this. We lost KK early, Poe later. McCoy was looking to pad stats and get his next FA check somewhere based on sacks. Love was a backup/roleplayer who didn't have his best year. Big Vern... he finally got it when it came to the stats sheet but all of these guys were missing the most important job of a DT: clog up that center of the field and tie up their blockers.

Everyone wants to be a star, no one wants to do the dirty work anymore.

       Very well said. 

[Toomers]

14 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I actually believe had KK and Poe not gone down with injury, we probably aren't talking full rebuild right now. I think people really underestimated what the loss of KK did to that unit. McCoy and Butler would have been great depth guys.

   The problem besides Kk injury was McCoy had to play 5 tech. We came out of the draft With KK, Poe, Butler and Love for 3 positions. They had to take a chance on McCoy and ask him (and KK) to play a completely different game than they have their entire careers. Poe is the only one who would consider holding up anybody. And he didn’t much. Butler is the same waste her always Ben but more snaps led to a few sacks. Love finally hit the end. 
 

   We basically built a 3rd and long DEF. The 5 techs were penetrating 3 techs. The De/OLB were undersized except for Mario. All pass rushers. It’s fine if you know that the other team isn’t going to run over and thru the poor LBs left hanging by this mess. 

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

   The problem besides Kk injury was McCoy had to play 5 tech. We came out of the draft With KK, Poe, Butler and Love for 3 positions. They had to take a chance on McCoy and ask him (and KK) to play a completely different game than they have their entire careers. Poe is the only one who would consider holding up anybody. And he didn’t much. Butler is the same waste her always Ben but more snaps led to a few sacks. Love finally hit the end. 
 

   We basically built a 3rd and long DEF. The 5 techs were penetrating 3 techs. The De/OLB were undersized except for Mario. All pass rushers. It’s fine if you know that the other team isn’t going to run over and thru the poor LBs left hanging by this mess. 

Yeah, we had an idea of switching up that defense but the execution in putting together the right roster for it was terrible. We set ourselves up for failure.