Veterans beware

[kungfoodude]

15 minutes ago, stbugs said:

You can’t have a deep team after one draft based on the huge amount of losses we had. We lost Bradberry, Cam, Luke, McCoy, Butler, Van Roten, Addison, Cockrell, Reid, Love, Turner, Olsen, Poe and probably more that I forgot. You can’t fix that in one offseason and we already had depth issues. I hate to beat a dead horse, but that’s why I was so excited about getting a haul in comp picks. We knew how many players we were losing so having a lot of picks would be great. Especially after seeing this draft, I’d love to have had 11 picks next year.

But we really didn't even seem to try to add depth in the offseason. Like I said, it was just such a head scratching few months. On the one hand, it seemed like we were tearing it down to the studs, on the other hand we appear to be doing touch ups to get it ready for market. It has just been so exceedingly odd.

It's really made me believe this will be a complete and total disaster in the long run. 

[stbugs]

43 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

Its not dead cap if he is playing on the team. The 6 million is his bonus prorated over the course of the deal.  Every year he plays of his contract, more of his bonus gets paid and then is not dead cap

2020	31	$12,500,000	$6,339,000	$1,000,000	$500,000		$0		$19,464,000	9.3%		$17,356,000	$2,108,000
2021	32	$12,500,000	$6,339,000	$1,500,000	$500,000		$0		$20,839,000	9.7%		$11,017,000	$9,822,000
2022	33	$0	$2,339,000	$0	$0		$0		$4,678,000	2.1%		$4,678,000	$0
2023	34	$0	$2,339,000	$0	$0		$0		$0	0.0%		$2,339,000	($2,339,000)

SMH. What do you think dead cap is? It’s prorated bonuses that can no longer be prorated because the player isn’t on the team. Short has $17M in prorated bonus money that has never hit our cap space. It is already dead cap because of it and it will hit our cap regardless of whether Short is on the team or not.

It’s semantics. Dead cap doesn’t exist if there is no prorated bonus. Let’s ignore guarantees, if a player’s contract was 100% salary then there would never be dead cap because there was no prorating. The salary paid would hit the same year as it was paid and that’s it.

It is dead cap if he’s playing for the team. Short’s salary is $13M in 2020 yet his cap hit is $19M. That difference is prorated bonus money, aka dead cap. Not calling it dead cap may make you feel better but again there is $17M of prorated bonus money for Short. It will count against the cap over 2020 and 2021 in some ratio based on whether he plays for us or not or we make him a post June 1st, doesn’t matter. The only thing is that it gets labeled as dead cap if he is released. It’s just a label. Again, once the bonus is paid, it’s basically dead cap and each year that players cap hit is more than his salary so there is dead cap accounted for every year.

I hate to keep saying this but the only thing that matters at this point is whether we use more cap space on Short. $0M more if he gets cut now, $13M more if he plays this year and $26.5M more if he plays this year and next year. Just add the $17M on top of one of those three numbers for Short’s total cap hit in the next two years.

Also, I assume you didn’t mean to say each year more of his bonus is paid. The bonus money had already been paid. It just hasn’t all hit the salary cap. 

[stbugs]

40 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

But we really didn't even seem to try to add depth in the offseason. Like I said, it was just such a head scratching few months. On the one hand, it seemed like we were tearing it down to the studs, on the other hand we appear to be doing touch ups to get it ready for market. It has just been so exceedingly odd.

It's really made me believe this will be a complete and total disaster in the long run. 

Not yet and honestly, this is the time that I thought we would be adding. I assume we are waiting for cut downs but man, that’s where you and I are perplexed. If we are in tough shape with depth and some starters and we are waiting for other teams scraps then why are we trying to compete? That’s also why I was excited for all the comp picks. We went heavy D so next year seemed like heavy O. Having an extra 3rd, 4th and 5th/6th or two 6ths would be a great way to pile up interior OL since we have Paradis signed for 2021 and no other real G or C signed outside of PS/players that will likely be released. Maybe Little or Daley gets converted but if we decide Paradis isn’t worth the money then we could once again have an entirely new set of LG, C and RG in 2021. We need to fix that and those 4 extra picks allow you to go hog wild at TE, WR, T and any other O position you want. 

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Not yet and honestly, this is the time that I thought we would be adding. I assume we are waiting for cut downs but man, that’s where you and I are perplexed. If we are in tough shape with depth and some starters and we are waiting for other teams scraps then why are we trying to compete? That’s also why I was excited for all the comp picks. We went heavy D so next year seemed like heavy O. Having an extra 3rd, 4th and 5th/6th or two 6ths would be a great way to pile up interior OL since we have Paradis signed for 2021 and no other real G or C signed outside of PS/players that will likely be released. Maybe Little or Daley gets converted but if we decide Paradis isn’t worth the money then we could once again have an entirely new set of LG, C and RG in 2021. We need to fix that and those 4 extra picks allow you to go hog wild at TE, WR, T and any other O position you want. 

Yeah, I was no fan of the "complete rebuild" just because it so rarely works out well but when we started heading down that road, why not completely commit? The compensation picks were there for the taking. We just ended up doing this odd batch of non-committal signings. If you look at basically every signing outside Thompson or CMC, they are 1-2 year deals. It's like we are just taking a bunch of lottery tickets and hoping that we hit on multiple. 

Do I like the draft? Sure. Do I understand basically anything else about what we did?? fug no. Bridgewater doesn't excite me at all but he's good enough to rob us of a real chance to get a franchise QB. It just doesn't make any sense.

[jfra78]

2 hours ago, stbugs said:

SMH. What do you think dead cap is? It’s prorated bonuses that can no longer be prorated because the player isn’t on the team. Short has $17M in prorated bonus money that has never hit our cap space. It is already dead cap because of it and it will hit our cap regardless of whether Short is on the team or not.

It’s semantics. Dead cap doesn’t exist if there is no prorated bonus. Let’s ignore guarantees, if a player’s contract was 100% salary then there would never be dead cap because there was no prorating. The salary paid would hit the same year as it was paid and that’s it.

It is dead cap if he’s playing for the team. Short’s salary is $13M in 2020 yet his cap hit is $19M. That difference is prorated bonus money, aka dead cap. Not calling it dead cap may make you feel better but again there is $17M of prorated bonus money for Short. It will count against the cap over 2020 and 2021 in some ratio based on whether he plays for us or not or we make him a post June 1st, doesn’t matter. The only thing is that it gets labeled as dead cap if he is released. It’s just a label. Again, once the bonus is paid, it’s basically dead cap and each year that players cap hit is more than his salary so there is dead cap accounted for every year.

I hate to keep saying this but the only thing that matters at this point is whether we use more cap space on Short. $0M more if he gets cut now, $13M more if he plays this year and $26.5M more if he plays this year and next year. Just add the $17M on top of one of those three numbers for Short’s total cap hit in the next two years.

Also, I assume you didn’t mean to say each year more of his bonus is paid. The bonus money had already been paid. It just hasn’t all hit the salary cap. 

If you think about it that way then every team has hundreds of millions in dead cap and it really means nothing.

[stbugs]

26 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

If you think about it that way then every team has hundreds of millions in dead cap and it really means nothing.

Correct. Some teams manage it better like the Saints and Brees using voidable years to continue to push out the dead cap. Some like us continue to sign/extend guys Matt Kalil and Matt Paradis and Dontari Poe and Greg Olsen and Eric Reid and take hits.

Acting like dead cap doesn’t exist until release is making it out to be the bogeyman if you go outside while John Wayne Gacey is invited to the family dinner. If you pay a bonus, you push out the cap accounting of most of that bonus to future years. That prorated bonus is dead cap. Finkel is Einhorn, Einhorn is Finkel. I’ve replied to multiple people in this thread who have incorrectly asserted that somehow the cap is better if a player is kept and paid additional salary. That’s because when a player is released so you don’t have to pay them NEW money, that prorated bonus money gets labeled dead cap. It no longer has the bigger salary to hide behind, but it’s the same money.

Also, suggesting it doesn’t mean anything is your way of trying to trivialize my argument. Of course it means something. It’s a cap hit. My point is that acting like it wasn’t there all along is being oblivious. Take Short for example. If he plays in 2020 and is released next year, his total cap hit for 2020 and 2021 is $30M. Only $13M of that is brand new salary for 2020. His prorated bonus money was $6M in 2020 and his dead cap in 2021 is $11M. If we cut him now, his total cap hit is $17M and it’s all called dead cap. In the first scenario is the $6M in prorated bonus and $11M in dead cap really different than the $17M in dead cap in the second scenario? Both came from the exact same signing bonus or other bonuses and both hit our cap due to that and not anything paid in 2020 or 2021. How are they not the same thing except for a label?

[jfra78]

8 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Correct. Some teams manage it better like the Saints and Brees using voidable years to continue to push out the dead cap. Some like us continue to sign/extend guys Matt Kalil and Matt Paradis and Dontari Poe and Greg Olsen and Eric Reid and take hits.

Acting like dead cap doesn’t exist until release is making it out to be the bogeyman if you go outside while John Wayne Gacey is invited to the family dinner. If you pay a bonus, you push out the cap accounting of most of that bonus to future years. That prorated bonus is dead cap. Finkel is Einhorn, Einhorn is Finkel. I’ve replied to multiple people in this thread who have incorrectly asserted that somehow the cap is better if a player is kept and paid additional salary. That’s because when a player is released so you don’t have to pay them NEW money, that prorated bonus money gets labeled dead cap. It no longer has the bigger salary to hide behind, but it’s the same money.

Also, suggesting it doesn’t mean anything is your way of trying to trivialize my argument. Of course it means something. It’s a cap hit. My point is that acting like it wasn’t there all along is being oblivious. Take Short for example. If he plays in 2020 and is released next year, his total cap hit for 2020 and 2021 is $30M. Only $13M of that is brand new salary for 2020. His prorated bonus money was $6M in 2020 and his dead cap in 2021 is $11M. If we cut him now, his total cap hit is $17M and it’s all called dead cap. In the first scenario is the $6M in prorated bonus and $11M in dead cap really different than the $17M in dead cap in the second scenario? Both came from the exact same signing bonus or other bonuses and both hit our cap due to that and not anything paid in 2020 or 2021. How are they not the same thing except for a label?

LOL its dead cap because you pay for a player who is no longer on the team, it is not dead cap until that point. Plain and simple. We paid KK what he was worth and at the time it made sense. 

[Wes21]

7 hours ago, jfra78 said:

LOL its dead cap because you pay for a player who is no longer on the team, it is not dead cap until that point. Plain and simple. We paid KK what he was worth and at the time it made sense. 

You are definitely right that teams don't call it "dead cap" until the player is gone.  But in reality, calling it dead money even when the guy is on the team helps to compartmentalize it as a sunken cost that sits on the books regardless of what you do next.  So it helps picture what that rude guy is saying.  You aren't really spending the same amount of money just because the overall cap hit for 2020 is similar.  You have the "dead cap" money regardless of what you do, but then you have now introduced new money into the equation...his 2020 salary.  That's $12.5M that you wouldn't have to pay if you cut him.

As far as what I think the team should do, I would keep him.  As another poster said, the cost of replacing him needs to be factored in as well.  I say eat the $12.5 salary for this year and re-evaluate what we want to do with him next offseason.

[jfra78]

8 minutes ago, Wes21 said:

You are definitely right that teams don't call it "dead cap" until the player is gone.  But in reality, calling it dead money even when the guy is on the team helps to compartmentalize it as a sunken cost that sits on the books regardless of what you do next.  So it helps picture what that rude guy is saying.  You aren't really spending the same amount of money just because the overall cap hit for 2020 is similar.  You have the "dead cap" money regardless of what you do, but then you have now introduced new money into the equation...his 2020 salary.  That's $12.5M that you wouldn't have to pay if you cut him.

As far as what I think the team should do, I would keep him.  As another poster said, the cost of replacing him needs to be factored in as well.  I say eat the $12.5 salary for this year and re-evaluate what we want to do with him next offseason.

Exactly, the number is more favorable next year.  I have a feeling he will have a good year

[Madwolf]

On 5/23/2020 at 11:55 AM, 45catfan said:

We have exactly 6 players age 30 and older; two being Gano and Jansen...STers.  I don't think Short, Okung, Whitehead and Paradis have to worry this year.  Those four guys are either 30 and 31-years old.  Not exactly geriatric status.

We quickly went from one of the NFL's oldest teams to quite far down the list.

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

We quickly went from one of the NFL's oldest teams to quite far down the list.

I think that was intentional. I am guessing they surmised that a locker room full of players that knew a lot more about professional football and what it takes to be successful weren't likely to mix well with a coaching staff that is going to have to learn all of that.

Young guys are gonna be more likely to buy in because they really don't know any better.

[panthers55]

40 minutes ago, Wes21 said:

You are definitely right that teams don't call it "dead cap" until the player is gone.  But in reality, calling it dead money even when the guy is on the team helps to compartmentalize it as a sunken cost that sits on the books regardless of what you do next.  So it helps picture what that rude guy is saying.  You aren't really spending the same amount of money just because the overall cap hit for 2020 is similar.  You have the "dead cap" money regardless of what you do, but then you have now introduced new money into the equation...his 2020 salary.  That's $12.5M that you wouldn't have to pay if you cut him.

As far as what I think the team should do, I would keep him.  As another poster said, the cost of replacing him needs to be factored in as well.  I say eat the $12.5 salary for this year and re-evaluate what we want to do with him next offseason.

Actually dead cap really doesn't apply until he is cut or traded. Yes there are costs to keep the player which is what you are paying him in salary, bonus and guarantees.  But you are getting a player who is contributing. Dead cap really refers to money you owe toward the salary cap but you are getting nothing in return.  That is like saying that still paying off a car I got rid of  a year ago is the same as counting what I still owe on a car that I am still driving and using. They aren't.  So counting all guaranteed money owed as dead cap space isn't really accurate or the best way to account for it. You are essentially counting any future guaranteed money as dead cap using that concept. Since most potential dead cap space doesn't actually become dead cap space, to account for it as such makes little sense. Short is making a premium this year and needs to produce big time. But cutting him at this point would be a stupid move and any argument suggesting great cost savings is very short sighted at best. So yeah I agree with you we should keep him at least this year 

[Wes21]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Actually dead cap really doesn't apply until he is cut or traded. Yes there are costs to keep the player which is what you are paying him in salary, bonus and guarantees.  But you are getting a player who is contributing. Dead cap really refers to money you owe toward the salary cap but you are getting nothing in return.  That is like saying that still paying off a car I got rid of  a year ago is the same as counting what I still owe on a car that I am still driving and using. They aren't.  So counting all guaranteed money owed as dead cap space isn't really accurate or the best way to account for it. You are essentially counting any future guaranteed money as dead cap using that concept. Since most potential dead cap space doesn't actually become dead cap space, to account for it as such makes little sense. Short is making a premium this year and needs to produce big time. But cutting him at this point would be a stupid move and any argument suggesting great cost savings is very short sighted at best. So yeah I agree with you we should keep him at least this year 

I realize calling it dead money prior to getting rid of the player is inaccurate, but it helps to envision what is really going on.  What he was paid in bonus money is dead and gone, and is going to be on the books no matter what you do next.  Your car analogy needs some tweaking.  Let me paint what's really going on:

You spend $30,000 to repair/upgrade your car.  That's a sunken cost, its over and done with.  Whether you choose to pay the car note on it for the next year or choose to get rid of it is up to you.  But paying the car note is introducing new money into the equation.  When people say "it costs the same to use the car or get rid of it," that is inaccurate.  In the case of KK, it costs an additional $12.5M to use him for the 2020 season.   

 

[thefuzz]

Whew, there are some people in this thread posting that have absolutely no idea how the salary cap works.

Unfortunately, the guy in charge of the team doesn't either.

We are F'd.