10 best players on the roster right now:

[t96]

6 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

CMC  is probably the only one on that list that is top 20 in their position. I do think CMC is the best back in the league though. 

Moore and Shaq could be argued top 20 at their position but it’s definitely nowhere near a consensus. 
Armah also definitely top 20 at his position although that’s a silly metric because there aren’t even that many starting FBs in the league...
 

Palardy not getting much love here either, he’s definitely a top 10 player for us, sad as that is. 

[Shotgun]

Just now, t96 said:

Moore and Shaq could be argued top 20 at their position but it’s definitely nowhere near a consensus. 
Armah also definitely top 20 at his position although that’s a silly metric because there aren’t even that many starting FBs in the league...
 

Palardy not getting much love here either, he’s definitely a top 10 player for us, sad as that is. 

I agree, sad that we need include the punter though.

[TheCasillas]

50 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Also, your bold is wrong. We can save this $90M and roll it over. Our cap situation isn’t bad but to say these short term solutions have zero future implications is incorrect. We could go for the top pick and have a lot more money to rollover and use like the Broncos did to sign Ware and Talib or the Chiefs signing Alexander and Mathieu when they were ready to compete not when they weren’t a playoff contender.

Saying they are off the books in 2 years seems like it would be a good thing for the cap, but why spend $90M you can rollover for bridges and waste good comp picks you could turn into Interior OL picks when we don’t have the team talent to compete now.

This strategy would not work because it does not obey the 89% rule. So I am not sure my bold is "wrong"

[TheCasillas]

58 minutes ago, onmyown said:

Borderline starters? I chose them as borderline best players on the team and used ‘best players’ as comparing them to the rest of the NFL, how big of sample size they have, and their money. Things things matter more than one year of an outstanding stat. Nothing about being a starter.

I misread your post, apologies. I'd still argue that they are our best players on our team. Coach knows its as well, for he has spoken out a lot about them specifically.  Of course, this is your opinion, and I respect that.

[onmyown]

9 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

I misread your post, apologies. I'd still argue that they are our best players on our team. Coach knows its as well, for he has spoken out a lot about them specifically.  Of course, this is your opinion, and I respect that.

They have the most talent and are young I’ll give you that and yea I agree they’re the best players on this skeleton team. Just a lot of unknowns. But if I had to bet on one of them becoming a consistent all pro player, I’d certainly take that bet because I do think it’ll happen. Coach knows this too and he’ll give them their shot to shine,  but as of now everyone but Shaq have just too little to show in general NFL best player sense. I still don’t know what people see in Shaq for that kind of money but if he proves me wrong, as a fan I’ll still be happy.

[stbugs]

1 hour ago, t96 said:

Pay him an extra $13M??? Pretty sure that cutting KK this year would’ve saved like $1-2M and had like $17M dead money cap hit. What benefit is there to freeing up that $1-2M? We can cut him after the year and save around $9M next year, which will almost certainly happen. 

 

I’m not necessarily advocating keeping him around longer but there have certainly been instances of players like KK who’ve had good and bad years getting steadier later in their career or with a new coaching staff, and it is definitely a possibility here. Let’s say he gets double digit sacks again and is willing to take a 2-3 year extension for reasonable money. You’d have to at least consider doing that or just keeping him through this contract.

Yes, an extra $13M. I feel like I’ve explained this a million times. Short has $17M in dead cap that hits our cap this year or this year and next year. It was already paid bonus money, we cannot reduce it in any way and since there is rollover it really doesn’t matter if it counts in 2020 or 2021. You are just looking at net savings this year and kicking $11M in dead cap to 2021. I’d rather save $2M this year and save $11M more in 2021. You are forgetting about that $11M push to 2021.

Short also has salary/roster and workout bonuses of $13M in 2020 and $14.5M in 2021.

So, we either cut him and he counts $17M cap wise in 2020 and 2021 or we keep him and he counts $30M if we cut him next year or $44.5M if we let him play out his contract.

Does him counting $30M instead of $17M make him worth keeping for this year where we will not compete? Is playing out his contract and counting $44.5M for two years to maybe get a reasonable contract extension at 33 worth it for us? I say no on both. Eat the $17M now and save the $27.5M for 2022/2023. We can’t do anything about the $17M.

[stbugs]

1 hour ago, TheCasillas said:

This strategy would not work because it does not obey the 89% rule. So I am not sure my bold is "wrong"

It’s 89% every 3 years. We have been at basically close to 100% the past few years. We could easily roll that over and still be at 89% for 3 years. How did the Colts end up with $85M and the Dolphins $89M before this year’s FA? The Bills and Bucs also had over $80M in space too. There’s been teams in the past few years with over $100M (Browns come to mind before splurging on Landry, ODB and others). We have Moore to extend next year and maybe Moton, etc. It’s easy to “roll over” that $90M by paying your guys and pushing other money out. Plenty of teams have done that. The days of having to spend all your cap is gone. I’m advocating spending a ton in 2022/2023, within 3 years so very easy to stay in the 89% over three years.

[t96]

4 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yes, an extra $13M. I feel like I’ve explained this a million times. Short has $17M in dead cap that hits our cap this year or this year and next year. It was already paid bonus money, we cannot reduce it in any way and since there is rollover it really doesn’t matter if it counts in 2020 or 2021. You are just looking at net savings this year and kicking $11M in dead cap to 2021. I’d rather save $2M this year and save $11M more in 2021. You are forgetting about that $11M push to 2021.

Short also has salary/roster and workout bonuses of $13M in 2020 and $14.5M in 2021.

So, we either cut him and he counts $17M cap wise in 2020 and 2021 or we keep him and he counts $30M if we cut him next year or $44.5M if we let him play out his contract.

Does him counting $30M instead of $17M make him worth keeping for this year where we will not compete? Is playing out his contract and counting $44.5M for two years to maybe get a reasonable contract extension at 33 worth it for us? I say no on both. Eat the $17M now and save the $27.5M for 2022/2023. We can’t do anything about the $17M.

It’s choosing between $17M in dead cap if we had cut him this year or $11M in dead cap if we cut him next year. The less dead cap the better. Whatever we could save for cutting KK earlier isn’t worth the increase in dead cap and whatever we would sign for those savings wouldn’t be better than KK anyways. None of this will make a difference in 2022/2023, the team is going to try to win before then and will be using the cap space, not unnecessarily rolling it over like sh*t teams do every year.

 

If we were going to commit to a 100% blatant full on tank and rebuild like the 76ers in the nba did recently, then I would agree with you, but we’re not doing that and that’s the right decision. Being content with loser mentality to kick off a new regime does not work out well in the long run.

[TheCasillas]

4 minutes ago, stbugs said:

It’s 89% every 3 years. We have been at basically close to 100% the past few years. We could easily roll that over and still be at 89% for 3 years. How did the Colts end up with $85M and the Dolphins $89M before this year’s FA? The Bills and Bucs also had over $80M in space too. There’s been teams in the past few years with over $100M (Browns come to mind before splurging on Landry, ODB and others). We have Moore to extend next year and maybe Moton, etc. It’s easy to “roll over” that $90M by paying your guys and pushing other money out. Plenty of teams have done that. The days of having to spend all your cap is gone. I’m advocating spending a ton in 2022/2023, within 3 years so very easy to stay in the 89% over three years.

Expiring contracts and short term free agency. They didn't not spend their money. They intentionally lined up their contracts to expire to create cap space. What you are suggesting would not fulfill the 89% rule.... If we did not spend the 90 million you are proposing, and spent 100% of our cap the next 2 seasons, we would be short of the 89%. We are already following the exact strategy the Colts and Dolphins exhibited, that you are discussing. 

Will are going to have to move forward and agree to disagree here. Our answers will come in time.

[MasterAwesome]

56 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yes, an extra $13M. I feel like I’ve explained this a million times. Short has $17M in dead cap that hits our cap this year or this year and next year. It was already paid bonus money, we cannot reduce it in any way and since there is rollover it really doesn’t matter if it counts in 2020 or 2021. You are just looking at net savings this year and kicking $11M in dead cap to 2021. I’d rather save $2M this year and save $11M more in 2021. You are forgetting about that $11M push to 2021.

Short also has salary/roster and workout bonuses of $13M in 2020 and $14.5M in 2021.

So, we either cut him and he counts $17M cap wise in 2020 and 2021 or we keep him and he counts $30M if we cut him next year or $44.5M if we let him play out his contract.

Does him counting $30M instead of $17M make him worth keeping for this year where we will not compete? Is playing out his contract and counting $44.5M for two years to maybe get a reasonable contract extension at 33 worth it for us? I say no on both. Eat the $17M now and save the $27.5M for 2022/2023. We can’t do anything about the $17M.

Your entire whiny shtick that you copy/paste into every thread relies on the premise that the TEAM does not expect to compete and is phoning it in this season...it doesn't matter that YOU believe they won't compete and prefer a tank job.  Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.  If you put yourself in the shoes of these 53 hungry grown men and new coach with something to prove and a new owner who has had back-to-back losing seasons to kick off his ownership, then it's pretty easy to figure out that the team wants to win and the FO is making moves with the intention of putting together the best roster in pursuit of that end. 

No football team thinks "Ok if we just suffer through this suckage for 2 seasons, draft this quarterback #1 overall next season who is definitely 100% gonna be a HOFer right out the gate, and turn these 6th round comp picks into all-pro o-linemen, then we're totally primed to compete for a Super Bowl by 2026".

[Basbear]

In no order

CMC

Shaq

Moton

Anderson

Teddy 2 gloves

Moore

KK

Boston

Burns

Okung

 

Brown should be added once the pads come on dropping either Boston, OKung, or Moton. Samuel should be on the list too(soon). Could make a case for Palardy, I just have a basis against calling ST guys football players. 

[stbugs]

3 hours ago, t96 said:

It’s choosing between $17M in dead cap if we had cut him this year or $11M in dead cap if we cut him next year. The less dead cap the better. Whatever we could save for cutting KK earlier isn’t worth the increase in dead cap and whatever we would sign for those savings wouldn’t be better than KK anyways. None of this will make a difference in 2022/2023, the team is going to try to win before then and will be using the cap space, not unnecessarily rolling it over like sh*t teams do every year.

 

If we were going to commit to a 100% blatant full on tank and rebuild like the 76ers in the nba did recently, then I would agree with you, but we’re not doing that and that’s the right decision. Being content with loser mentality to kick off a new regime does not work out well in the long run.

You don’t get dead cap. We don’t get rid of $6M in dead cap by keeping him a year. He’s got $17M in dead cap. It will never change. Here’s how it works:

Keep Him - Total Cap Cost $30M

2020 Dead Cap = $6M in 2020, New Salary = $13M

2021 Dead Cap = $11M

Release Him - Total Cap Cost $17M

2020 Dead Cap = $17M (Note that we could make dead cap identical to keep him with a Post June 1st designation)

Again, we save $13M in total cap if we release him. The $17M just can’t be split and moved around, never reduced.

I’m pretty much assuming he is gone after this year so that $14.5M new money in 2021 will be saved in either scenario.

[TheCasillas]

33 minutes ago, stbugs said:

You don’t get dead cap. We don’t get rid of $6M in dead cap by keeping him a year. He’s got $17M in dead cap. It will never change. Here’s how it works:

Keep Him - Total Cap Cost $30M

2020 Dead Cap = $6M in 2020, New Salary = $13M

2021 Dead Cap = $11M

Release Him - Total Cap Cost $17M

2020 Dead Cap = $17M (Note that we could make dead cap identical to keep him with a Post June 1st designation)

Again, we save $13M in total cap if we release him. The $17M just can’t be split and moved around, never reduced.

I’m pretty much assuming he is gone after this year so that $14.5M new money in 2021 will be saved in either scenario.

If we cut him this year, we still would 11.1m dead cap next year for Short. Dead cap lasts as long as the contract, hence why we are still paying Kalil's dead cap this year, along with Trai Turner, Greg Olsen, Eris Reid and Dontario Poe. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying here?

 

If we were to release him this year, technically we would be paying 28m of deadcap.

[stbugs]

4 hours ago, TheCasillas said:

Expiring contracts and short term free agency. They didn't not spend their money. They intentionally lined up their contracts to expire to create cap space. What you are suggesting would not fulfill the 89% rule.... If we did not spend the 90 million you are proposing, and spent 100% of our cap the next 2 seasons, we would be short of the 89%. We are already following the exact strategy the Colts and Dolphins exhibited, that you are discussing. 

Will are going to have to move forward and agree to disagree here. Our answers will come in time.

We have 3 years (assuming starts in 2020 for this example) to get to 89%. We could spend 77% of the cap this year, 77% next year and splurge with 113-146% in 2022. That would give us 89-100% for the 3 year period. That’s how teams have rolled over a ton to splurge for a year. I chose 77% which would be @ $45M in space due to cutting out the contracts in 2020 and 2021 equally just as an example. The main point is that the rollover allows you to spend less than 89% in an individual year and then splurge more than 100% so that the three year period still hits 89% or more. With Moore and hopefully Moton, we might use more than 77% to get them setup long term, but I was just doing simple math.

See this link for the 2018 to 2019 cap rollover amounts to see that there’s no reason we cannot rollover $45M. The Browns rolled over $56.5M into 2019 and Indy rolled over $49M. That’s why the Browns splurged last year on Landry, Beckham and Vernon. Also, Indy rolled over $40M+ again this year.

My goal would have been to cut out the fat and the bridge folks to maximize comp picks for 2021 so we bring in a ton of OL and other offense to complement the 2020 D picks. That gives them 1-2 years to get better/more experience with hopefully a real franchise QB like Cam. Then in 2022 and 2023 we splurge on FAs when all our young guys are rolling and gosh forbid our OL gelled. We should be able to afford 2 top tier FAs like Alexander and Matthieu and maybe some other FAs as well.