Understanding Defensive Needs: The Big Nickel

[MHS831]

Hello campers,

I am creating a thread to share some thoughts and to learn more about this defense. We have been in a traditional 4-3 with a nickel in for a LB on third downs for most of the time during the last decade.  But around 2013 or so, I kept hearing "stack" or "Big nickel" a lot--I originally thought it meant a larger nickel CB. In a way, I was right, but not in the way it was in my head.  It means that instead of pulling a LB and inserting a CB as you would in the traditional base package, you insert a Safety who can give you many functions---covering the TE, Slot, LB-contain, or blitzing--that is what Chinn is doing for us, and why he is so valuable. So instead of changing personnel (something you cannot do in hurry up offenses) to switch depending on offensive formation, you simply change the responsibilities of the big nickel safety.  (This is also why the blocking/catching TE is now all the rage--it gives the offense similar flexibility in no huddle, hurry up situations, fwiw-the defense must answer to that)

On Sunday, they mentioned the 3-3-5--aka the "Stack" defense.  It is a form of the big nickel (5 defense featuring 3 LBs and 5 DBs)--yet I have seen us in a set that looked like a 4-2-5.  So I Googled that, and one of the reasons for that is to cover for a lack of good LB play.  Makes sense--Carter and Thompson, OLBs by trade, along with Chinn stepped up into an OLB role.  No more Whitehead, a traditional 4-3 ILB (and not a good one).

Forms of this defense are:

• 3-3-5
• 4-2-5 (which we have seen routinely)
• 2-4-5 (I have not seen this)

Lately, I have seen more Boston in the box area and Burris or Chinn deeper.  It has helped Boston, a terrible open-field tackler and a player we need to upgrade.  It seems the safeties need versatility--so the Reids and Harpers of the world are becoming obsolete. 

I could drone on about each position, but this is pretty much our base package--and the fact that our DTs are NTs for the most part that move around at times (saw Brown in a 3T a lot with Kerr at NT some recently), but it is interesting that we may not need a KK-type 3 tech.  I don't know--still learning.

Once we get all the tools we need (skill sets), we will probably do more run blitzing and stunting to create pass pressure.  

So what does this mean about the need for a MLB?  CB?  S?  Do we still need the Luke Kuechly, 4-3 Tampa 2 MLB?   I do not think so.  We need big CBs that can tackle on the edge.  We need versatile safeties. and as many Safeties as we have LBs.  Not sure about the defensive fronts. 

When I do mocks, I need to know the skill set /type of player. 

I am guessing that we will take advantage of the CB market depth in this draft---we really don't have an answer for the #1WRs in the NFC South right now.I have no idea how they think Pride and Thomas Oliver have progressed, how well Jackson fits, or if we keep Douglas.

  I expect that this will be an offensive draft, btw, with QB in the first and a LT (along with a CB) on day 2. 

I hope we can bring up points about this to help us all understand the defense with more clarity, including the personnel needed to run it.

 

 

 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

I didn't watch a lot of Baylor football so I'm not all that familiar with Snow's schemes. Reading this though, what we've been watching isn't Snow's preferred scheme. I think he knows he doesn't yet have the secondary to implement his defense.

https://matchquarters.com/2020/04/03/the-evolution-of-the-odd-dime-baylor-vs-oklahoma-pt-3-pressures-2019/

 

[Jon Snow]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I didn't watch a lot of Baylor football so I'm not all that familiar with Snow's schemes. Reading this though, what we've been watching isn't Snow's preferred scheme. I think he knows he doesn't yet have the secondary to implement his defense.

https://matchquarters.com/2020/04/03/the-evolution-of-the-odd-dime-baylor-vs-oklahoma-pt-3-pressures-2019/

 

This.  You have to play the hand you were delt so to speak.  The old man has done an admiral job of getting this bunch of scrubs to play beyond their skill level.

[shaqattaq]

48 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I didn't watch a lot of Baylor football so I'm not all that familiar with Snow's schemes. Reading this though, what we've been watching isn't Snow's preferred scheme. I think he knows he doesn't yet have the secondary to implement his defense.

https://matchquarters.com/2020/04/03/the-evolution-of-the-odd-dime-baylor-vs-oklahoma-pt-3-pressures-2019/

 

This is an awesome article and does a good job of making a layman, like myself, understand. My favorite quotes are below for those who don't want to read the whole thing. It's easy to picture our pick ups filling these rolls.

"Phil Snow’s 3-4 defense was transformed into a 3-3-3 in 2019. His aggressive style of play calling meshed with the roster Baylor had. Placing two converted CBs at “hash safeties” and hybrid LBs allowed Snow to bring pressure from all over. "

"Many times in a 3-down, the Cross-dog blitz path is used on the weakest guard. By leaving both DEs in the fit, they occupy the tackles. The Nose engages the center and “pins” the “A” gap away from the Cross-dog. “Pinning” means the Nose will engage and bring the center with him as he works to guard next to him, pinning the guard and center in the “A” gap. The point is to occupy both players and force a double team, keeping the eyes (and hands) of the O-line on the defender."

[MHS831]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I didn't watch a lot of Baylor football so I'm not all that familiar with Snow's schemes. Reading this though, what we've been watching isn't Snow's preferred scheme. I think he knows he doesn't yet have the secondary to implement his defense.

https://matchquarters.com/2020/04/03/the-evolution-of-the-odd-dime-baylor-vs-oklahoma-pt-3-pressures-2019/

 

I had the same thought--maybe why we rarely blitz.  I wondered if we are using the 4-2-5 (basically, the nickel) more to keep Whitehead off the field. 

[Waldo]

I look at last year's drafted CBs and think you are right about bigger guys that can also run. We didn't pick one until the 4th and we 2 guys who are lite versions of that, quick and not tiny but not 6'2", basically as close as you can get after the 3rd round. 

I know it was said Snow ran mostly 3/3/5 at Baylor when they were ramping up here. I think replacing Boston at Safety and a CB on the outside with Douglas and we could have a substantially improved D. It did improve drastically when Whitehead was benched. I do wonder how much of this year's game planning has been out of necessity and not the direction they would rather go. 

[MHS831]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

I look at last year's drafted CBs and think you are right about bigger guys that can also run. We didn't pick one until the 4th and we 2 guys who are lite versions of that, quick and not tiny but not 6'2", basically as close as you can get after the 3rd round. 

I know it was said Snow ran mostly 3/3/5 at Baylor when they were ramping up here. I think replacing Boston at Safety and a CB on the outside with Douglas and we could have a substantially improved D. It did improve drastically when Whitehead was benched. I do wonder how much of this year's game planning has been out of necessity and not the direction they would rather go. 

I have to think we are going to upgrade 1 S spot, 1 CB spot, and 1 LB spot.  The CB spot will be the bigger contract/high draft pick.  I like the CBs in this draft, do not like the Safeties---and the LB I want is Surratt, UNC--a 180 degree change from where I was in November. 

At some point, we are going to need a LG, LT, and a TE too.  We can compete next year with a good GM...

[TheProcess]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

I look at last year's drafted CBs and think you are right about bigger guys that can also run. We didn't pick one until the 4th and we 2 guys who are lite versions of that, quick and not tiny but not 6'2", basically as close as you can get after the 3rd round. 

I know it was said Snow ran mostly 3/3/5 at Baylor when they were ramping up here. I think replacing Boston at Safety and a CB on the outside with Douglas and we could have a substantially improved D. It did improve drastically when Whitehead was benched. I do wonder how much of this year's game planning has been out of necessity and not the direction they would rather go. 

I have been talking up the S and CB need. There are a few of each that I like in this draft. I would not draft any in the first round due to other needs. My favorite Safety is Jevon Holland, and my favorite DB of the ones that could make it out of the first round is Eric Stokes. 

Safeties I like:  Jevon Holland, Talanoa Hufanga, Paris Ford

CB I like after the first round:  Eric Stokes, Tyson Campbell, Shaun Wade

I have seen a few sites with Jaycee Horn going in the 2nd round. I will say that if he is there, run the card up as fast you can. I just don't see any way he isn't a top 20 pick

[WarHeel]

“We just need more two TE sets.”

-Sanjay probably 

[Jon Snow]

9 minutes ago, WarHeel said:

“We just need more two TE sets.”

-Sanjay probably 

Whatever happened to that guy?  Did he finally get permabanned?

[WarHeel]

14 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

Whatever happened to that guy?  Did he finally get permabanned?

Appears so. 

[Waldo]

41 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I have to think we are going to upgrade 1 S spot, 1 CB spot, and 1 LB spot.  The CB spot will be the bigger contract/high draft pick.  I like the CBs in this draft, do not like the Safeties---and the LB I want is Surratt, UNC--a 180 degree change from where I was in November. 

At some point, we are going to need a LG, LT, and a TE too.  We can compete next year with a good GM...

I think they will compete, it's just a lot to upgrade in one offseason unless we hit bullseyes on everything. I'm looking for 4 quality players at those positions, 2 projects/maybes and some scraps sounds a lot more realistic. With this crew, if the scraps has any positives I think they can find them and work with them. I'm just reminding myself this isn't Madden and the list isn't going to be checked off in one offseason. The FA signings need to be middle of the pack guys, positions the draft is weak in. That would be my win for an offseason. 

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, TheProcess said:

I have been talking up the S and CB need. There are a few of each that I like in this draft. I would not draft any in the first round due to other needs. My favorite Safety is Jevon Holland, and my favorite DB of the ones that could make it out of the first round is Eric Stokes. 

Safeties I like:  Jevon Holland, Talanoa Hufanga, Paris Ford

CB I like after the first round:  Eric Stokes, Tyson Campbell, Shaun Wade

I have seen a few sites with Jaycee Horn going in the 2nd round. I will say that if he is there, run the card up as fast you can. I just don't see any way he isn't a top 20 pick

CB in the first is possible only behind QB, LT but in front of a trade back scenario. A #1 CB would be a nice consolation prize for not getting a QB, LT looks unlikely for us in the 1st at this time. I still think we take a QB and look at CB in the 2nd. I am not hearing this being an amazing OT class but it sounds deep at CB. If we can snag a solid S to work on then we have checked some large boxes for team needs. 

I don't do much research into players until closer to the combine, just too much work, so thanks for adding some names to youtube. 

[MHS831]

57 minutes ago, Waldo said:

I think they will compete, it's just a lot to upgrade in one offseason unless we hit bullseyes on everything. I'm looking for 4 quality players at those positions, 2 projects/maybes and some scraps sounds a lot more realistic. With this crew, if the scraps has any positives I think they can find them and work with them. I'm just reminding myself this isn't Madden and the list isn't going to be checked off in one offseason. The FA signings need to be middle of the pack guys, positions the draft is weak in. That would be my win for an offseason. 

Yeah, we are going to have to do some bottom fishing for some of these spots--but there is a also some development going on here at S---I have seen Hartsfield and Franklin playing some--and we have been playing better.  If we could get a top CB, move Jackson to the #2, Douglas to the #3 when in the game....There is a player from Tulsa I really like--Allie Green IV-if he can play at this level, he could be a great addition as a CB/S/nickel hybrid player. He is big (6-3, 215) and plays CB.

He will go much earlier than most people think:

http://thescoutingdepot.com/2020/08/15/allie-green-iv-2020-scouting-report/  

My point is, we could add this player and go with what we have---with Franklin and Hartsfield developing, with Jackson entering a contract year, etc.  Maybe we'd be good to go if we add a LB.