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Interesting change in draft philosophy

Zod

By Zod,
in Carolina Panthers

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Waldo Grand Master

Waldo

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

To win Superbowls you have to consistently win your conference.  To consistently win your conference you have to consistently make the playoffs.  So the goal is to consistently have a winning team.  The rest will come if the first goal is accomplished.  Trust the process.

Trust is gone for now. I am happy and excited to watch them prove it tho. It's easy with a GM, he is already on the clock and we don't have to sit around picking apart coach speak to guess which way anything is going. 

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Jon Snow Grand Master

Jon Snow

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Just now, Waldo said:

Trust is gone for now. I am happy and excited to watch them prove it tho. It's easy with a GM, he is already on the clock and we don't have to sit around picking apart coach speak to guess which way anything is going. 

As the late great Al Davis would say, just win baby.  That's all I care about.  I couldn't give two sh*ts how they do it.

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CL1022 Contributor

CL1022

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Posted

 

I’m a very rare poster (Huddle stalker, not contributor). But this topic is like my own personal soap box. 

 
Analytics aside, trading down has always made so much sense to me. You’re evaluating 21 year olds who are nowhere near finished developing (physically for one), but more importantly mentally or emotionally (compare the 28 year old you to the 21 yr old version for a minute). To me, no matter how good of a talent evaluator you are, I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t want as many tickets in that lottery each year as you could get. 
 
When you look at the value chart and compare it to the hit rate, high picks are incredibly over valued. As an added bonus, 20-30 guys on rookie contracts each year sure as hell doesn’t hurt your cap either. And if you want to verify the merit of this philosophy, take a look at the average number of picks taken each year by the 10 winningest franchises compared to the 10 worst over, say, the past decade. 
 
(Or just look at how trading up worked out for Hurney I guess.)

 

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AU-panther Mentor

AU-panther

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Posted

 

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

Seattle has grown stale and is living off of their QBs production and good coaching. If they adjusted and updated they could be a power house but it appears they are happy with close and I am guessing with a completely hands off ownership, there is not much pressure at this time to change anything. 

I like what KC has built recently and look to be keeping up. I think looking at NE is the wrong thing to do but instead look to BB, he is the reason for success and he needs to find new blood to help get back on track. It will be interesting to see what he does, guy is a genius. The Bills are doing it really well. I think I would take the most from 49ers and KC. I do not want to emulate. We chased the idea of the Steelers for years and I would rather steal and adapt then emulate. I guess I look at emulating like trying to re-catch lightning in a bottle and that's why teams that do it fail so often. 

here again name better teams over the past 10

and KCs success has been recent, and they are as dependent on a QB as anyone.  Bills, here again short term success, although I like their model, here again QB dependent.

You can't criticize Seattle for living off of their QB and then name two teams who success is directly attributed to their play.

Newsflash, really good teams tend to have really good QB play

 

 

 

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Waldo Grand Master

Waldo

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

 

here again name better teams over the past 10

and KCs success has been recent, and they are as dependent on a QB as anyone.  Bills, here again short term success, although I like their model, here again QB dependent.

You can't criticize Seattle for living off of their QB and then name two teams who success is directly attributed to their play.

Newsflash, really good teams tend to have really good QB play

 

 

 

I can because they are losers this year at 12-4, they just are better losers then us. Every team that won the SB every year since 2014 has been better than them. I have already agreed they are consistent but they are not finishing. At the end of every seadon there is 1 winner and 31 losers. Can you not see that? I am not naming them but here is a link, the winners were better than Seattle each of those years.

I'm not debating their consitancy, i also never said they are not consistant, I was just notating their issues that have kept them from the SB. my criticism wasn't against their QB or coaching, it was that their drafting had kept them from being a serious contender. If they were better there, I am saying you would see more wins that matter most in that link.

And on a final note, recent is relevant. KC is dominating, Seattle is sitting at home and has been since 2014. That matters more to me than how many wins Seattle has had in the last 10 years, even if that is impressive number it is way behind winning a SB. Nowhere did I say Seattle is a bad team or a not winning team. 

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AU-panther Mentor

AU-panther

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Waldo said:

I can because they are losers this year at 12-4, they just are better losers then us. Every team that won the SB every year since 2014 has been better than them. I have already agreed they are consistent but they are not finishing. At the end of every seadon there is 1 winner and 31 losers. Can you not see that? I am not naming them but here is a link, the winners were better than Seattle each of those years.

I'm not debating their consitancy, i also never said they are not consistant, I was just notating their issues that have kept them from the SB. my criticism wasn't against their QB or coaching, it was that their drafting had kept them from being a serious contender. If they were better there, I am saying you would see more wins that matter most in that link.

And on a final note, recent is relevant. KC is dominating, Seattle is sitting at home and has been since 2014. That matters more to me than how many wins Seattle has had in the last 10 years, even if that is impressive number is is way behind winning a SB. Nowhere did I say Seattle is a bad team or a not winning team. 

So Denver and Philly are organizations you would prefer to be like? Ok 

By your reasoning Dilfer is better than Cam? 

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Growl Grand Master

Growl

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5 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

Well, as I pointed out in my above post, the good news is, Seattle killed it during his tenure there in maximizing value in the middle to late rounds of the draft, they had numerous all-pros, with a couple even coming out of the 5th round, and of course they got their franchise QB in the 3rd.  And as bad as a rep as they have at first round picks, when you hit like that and develop talent on the later picks, it really doesn't matter.  Same thing with NE.  Belichick has been notoriously bad in the first round, and also has always had a penchant for trading back and out, yet they develop lower round talent and UDFAs that make up for the busts in the earlier rounds (it doesn't hurt to have the greatest coach/cheater the game has ever seen either lol).  So, that has been my feeling all along...  if you know you're getting a sure thing in a trade using your first rounders, you do it, especially if your staff has a knack for developing talent regardless - which Rhule showed the ability to do even in year one...  and now we have Fitterer in the mix coming from Seattle's school of thought?  I am excited as I've ever been moving forward.

why don't you go take a sneak peek at Seattle's recent draft history

 

the patriots are another example of a poorly drafting team that rode a hall of fame QB to perennial success, earning the acclaim of little brain fans who cling to it so tightly because it sounds just so smart and is so great for the cap, which of course, is the ultimate litmus indicator of a successful team

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Waldo Grand Master

Waldo

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Posted
8 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

So Denver and Philly are organizations you would prefer to be like? Ok 

By your reasoning Dilfer is better than Cam? 

Those are your words. I said those teams were better than the Seahawks those years. I have said in the thread I want to steal what teams do well and not try and emulate the entire organizations. How many time has a BB top guy left and bombed elsewhere? Soo many because you can't emulate the Pats without cloning BB.

The Bills and 49ers (without a franchise QB yet which is a huge wow) have done that. Thats why I like what their doing. KC is Reid basically running the best org in the business right now. His experience and improvement from his Philly days is really impressive. And nowhere in this did I once say I want to pretend we can be those organizations. 

Fritters positives seem to be his steady approach and his personality sounds like a big match with Rhule and Tepper. He stuck through 3 regime changes in Seattle, also impressive. But no, I absolutely see no reason to emulate Seattle, take their stability and leave their weaknesses,  which they have.

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TylerDurden Grand Master

TylerDurden

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29 minutes ago, Growl said:

why don't you go take a sneak peek at Seattle's recent draft history

 

the patriots are another example of a poorly drafting team that rode a hall of fame QB to perennial success, earning the acclaim of little brain fans who cling to it so tightly because it sounds just so smart and is so great for the cap, which of course, is the ultimate litmus indicator of a successful team

Oh no, I know it's been bad recently, and they definitely have rode Wilson to more wins he's pulled out of his ass than he should have, but I'm believing in the big hits they've gotten in spite of the misses, and the aggressiveness for upgrades through FA and Trades Fitterer alluded to today.

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Jon Snow Grand Master

Jon Snow

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Those are your words. I said those teams were better than the Seahawks those years. I have said in the thread I want to steal what teams do well and not try and emulate the entire organizations. How many time has a BB top guy left and bombed elsewhere? Soo many because you can't emulate the Pats without cloning BB.

The Bills and 49ers (without a franchise QB yet which is a huge wow) have done that. Thats why I like what their doing. KC is Reid basically running the best org in the business right now. His experience and improvement from his Philly days is really impressive. And nowhere in this did I once say I want to pretend we can be those organizations. 

Fritters positives seem to be his steady approach and his personality sounds like a big match with Rhule and Tepper. He stuck through 3 regime changes in Seattle, also impressive. But no, I absolutely see no reason to emulate Seattle, take their stability and leave their weaknesses,  which they have.

Well if the Seattle model and the New England model isn't good enough then who the hell is?  I mean they sure the hell win a lot to suck so bad at drafting.   

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Waldo Grand Master

Waldo

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

Well if the Seattle model and the New England model isn't good enough then who the hell is?  I mean they sure the hell win a lot to suck so bad at drafting.   

Stop chasing models and just look at the parts. Did NE model themselves after someone? No, BB failed in CLE and became an evil genius. Did Seatle model themselves after someone? No, they hired Carrol and then the GM who where a huge match along with a great staff and did all kinds of crazy stuff to make a juggernaut for a couple of years. 

Did JR do such a good job chasing the Steelers the first 25 year that all the fanbase can do now it chase other teams with dreams of success? I am tired of following other teams. Is it so bad that I want to see the Panthers be the team leading the league in stead?

Great coaching, was great QB play (Interesting to see where NE goes now) and savvy free agency where they get picks and players. NE and Seattle do all that really well. Can you really say their drafting is top of the league? Even with doing a curve for picking later? That is not why I don't want to emulate them, it because emulation sucks and is a pipe dream. I hope Rule and Fritters make something new from the successes and failures they have witnessed and not try to be it all over again. Is that so bad?

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