Training Camp for 7/29/2024

[ForJimmy]

Just now, csx said:

And I am not suggesting Young is or will be a good deep passer. I just don't get to redifine things base on what I want.

He isn't the best deep passer by a long shot.  Most QBs can get it 20 plus yards accurately though.  To me deep passes tend to be more of a WR/scheme stat than a QB stat.  Look no further than Tua and Geno (two of the best deep passers last year).  They became great deep passers when they got elite WRs.  Hill/Waddle helped Tua and going to Seattle with Metcalf/Lockett helped Geno.  If you don't have an elite deep pass WR then it's difficult to become a good deep pass QB.  It's not like Tua has some rocket for an arm.  

[Wundrbread33]

If we have to pull out  definitions of “deep throw” to back up Young; then that speaks for itself.

[ForJimmy]

3 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

If we have to pull out  definitions of “deep throw” to back up Young; then that speaks for itself.

OR it’s just stating we aren’t going to practice throwing 50 yards bombs on the regular. Looks like he did throw one to DJ. We are going to zero in on plays that offenses run 90% of the time before we incorporate the less common plays. Just trying to use some logic here…

[csx]

15 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

If we have to pull out  definitions of “deep throw” to back up Young; then that speaks for itself.

It speaks to the fact that people don't know the meaning of terms they use.

[strato]

Somebody claimed 15 yards is a deep throw. You could take a sack and need to complete a deep ball to get a first down. It seems pretty silly.

[Wundrbread33]

1 hour ago, csx said:

It speaks to the fact that people don't know the meaning of terms they use.

If 20 is a “deep ball”, then we need another term for 30,40,50 etc.

 

When people say “deep ball” in conversation, you know they don’t mean 20 yards. 

Most people who are at least in their teens can throw a ball 15-20 yards. 

 

Focusing in on a definition defining “deep” as 20 yards is missing the entire point.

 

I don’t have to use the term “deep ball”…fans are concerned about Bryce’s ability to stretch the defense and apply pressure down field. 
 

But you all know this already. 
 

A lot of bad faith conversation on this site. 

[pantherclaw]

4 hours ago, strato said:

You are injecting this because it suits your narrative and fanhood IMO. Because it is really just some stat keeping crap. 

Does ANYONE think DCs are looking at a 15 yard pass as a deep throw? Maybe with us in 2023 but the real world? I just completely disagree. And don’t care what bullshit people use to justify it. Okay? 

Deep is over the top. Attempting to get behind the defense. A fuging 15 yard pass does poo to stretch a defense. Maybe it stresses them but it does not stretch them. 

Wrong. 

I was curious how the experts define deep passes.   The general consensus is anything that travels more than 20 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage.   

I found one resource to quote.  There are endless others. 

Instead of making assumptions, why don't you do some damn research. 

[Wundrbread33]

9 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Wrong. 

I was curious how the experts define deep passes.   The general consensus is anything that travels more than 20 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage.   

I found one resource to quote.  There are endless others. 

Instead of making assumptions, why don't you do some damn research. 

People are arguing two different things here. 
 

NO ONE is concerned about Bryce being able to throw 20 yards past the LOS. 
 

People ARE concerned if Bryce can spread a defense, back up coverage, and open the field up. 
 

That’s why this definition isn’t landing effectively. It does not address the concern.

 

So we can keep arguing a definition that does not speak to the concerns, or better yet, let’s come up with a word that communicates what people here mean when they say “deep ball” incorrectly. 

[Bear Hands]

Not to get too involved here but even in the context of the measured 20+ deep yard stats...

Recent rankings (Deep Passing EPA)

Bryce's Deep Ball EPA, adjusted clean pocket percentage was 34%, ranking 44th.  The only QB with notable 2023 playing time behind him was Jeff Driskel, so only way to go is up folks.  

Interestingly enough, Purdy, Stroud, Tua, Stafford, & Goff were at the top.  I imagine play design comes into play, but that 20+ placement is important and it's also telling, those were all 2023 playoff QBs.  

[strato]

24 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Wrong. 

I was curious how the experts define deep passes.   The general consensus is anything that travels more than 20 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage.   

I found one resource to quote.  There are endless others. 

Instead of making assumptions, why don't you do some damn research. 

I can count on you to research that stuff why should I? 

Joking. I know what the people say I just think it is inadequate. I believe it is a probably a function of FF or something because rarely in every day talk do people refer to a 20 yard pass as a deep throw. But they need their grading system.

I am really not aiming this at Young’s arm, not trying to stretch the definition past what he can throw just to dog him. Haven’t used the term rainbow, duck, rope, any of that descriptive stuff. 

I do not give a poo what some writing somewhere says when I have eyes. That is pretty much it. 

Edited July 30 by strato

[Wundrbread33]

There is a reason why this wasn’t a topic of discussion with Beuerlein, Weinke, Delhomme, Cam, hell even Matt Moore, Darnold, Baker, etc. 

 

Do people think this topic is attached to Bryce for no reason?

[ForJimmy]

25 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Not to get too involved here but even in the context of the measured 20+ deep yard stats...

Recent rankings (Deep Passing EPA)

Bryce's Deep Ball EPA, adjusted clean pocket percentage was 34%, ranking 44th.  The only QB with notable 2023 playing time behind him was Jeff Driskel, so only way to go is up folks.  

Interestingly enough, Purdy, Stroud, Tua, Stafford, & Goff were at the top.  I imagine play design comes into play, but that 20+ placement is important and it's also telling, those were all 2023 playoff QBs.  

Yeah throwing the ball 20 plus yards accurately against NFL defenses is no easy task.  That's my biggest take.  People on here scoffing at 20 plus yard passes.  I mean after the 25 yard touchback, one of those gets you at midfield and another is close to the redzone.  It's was definitely a weakness for Bryce last year, even looking at the 20 plus yard range.  

I do think that this falls on the WR as much at the QB though.  The 5 top ones you mentioned had a nice WR core and a nice offensive scheme to use them effectively.  Notice how the two biggest arms (Allen and Mahomes) were not in the top group you mentioned.  Big arm doesn't always equate to deep passes as much as people think.  You have to hit a spot on the field at the right time and have a WR capable of beating his guy, and going out and getting the ball.  I think our staff knows this and wanted XL and Sanders (TE) to help address a previous offensive weakness.  They may take a minute to get comfortable but I think they were drafted to help with this.  Whether it is Bryce or another QB we replace him with we want to have some "deep ball catchers" on this offense.

[strato]

It’s kind of a two faceted thing. The biggest issue last year was not stretching the defenses, having no deep ball threat, and that was evident from the very first game; it was a problem.

So we are looking hard to find what they are going to do about it this year. Stretching the defense is high on the agenda for success, and people are alert to it.

So then we start talking deep balls, people are all “15 yards, 20 yards” is a deep throw. 

 

Edited July 30 by strato

[Icege]

I understand that some of y'all feel like 20yds shouldn't be classified as a deep pass, but it is. The sooner that can be accepted, the sooner a better "Bryce is too smol" talking point can be found to spam in every thread.