Do you really think the goal of this season is to win?

[Lumps]

Of course the plan is to win games.

9-7 or 10-6 I say.

I'm kind of tired of these kind of threads OP, but your avatar is f*cking sweet.

Yea I can understand that but I just dropped a couple grand on this season's tickets and just needed to feel better. As I was buying them this is what was going on in my mind, am I buying this tickets to see them win? Of course, but I have a feeling I'll be watching these games looking for who is a keeper and who isn't rather than focusing on a win.

I don't believe teams don't go into every season with an equal chance to win, I believe their chances are set up by them through different means and this year the panther's are set up to establish positions, not wins, even though obviously the latter is their ultimate goal.

Pantherbob hit the nail on the head.

Good responses guys I feel a little better

[RockyTopVol]

I get the point of a rebuilding year, but I still don't think this team will lose a whole lot of games. They may go 8-8, but with their schedule and talent, they should be extremely average...not horrible. If Moore can get in the groove he was in late last season, that o-line and backfield will surely help him win quite a few games for Carolina.

[Cyberjag]

I've been in Charlotte since 1979, a football fan longer than that, and bought my PSLs the day they went on sale. I've followed the Panthers since their inception, and before 2003 the only buzz was hope for building on 2002 and having a winning season. Don't forget, the team got booed off the field to close the first half against Jacksonville in their first game.

Even when the season opened and they did well, the games were still close and it took a while for everyone to start believing in the Panthers. There was excitement, but it was tempered by franchise history at that point.

Oh, and I listen to sports radio too.

[Guest silver82blade]

rebuilding is what the lions and raiders have been doing for years. well, the lions have been doing it for decades. but, anyway, we have too many solid pieces to our team to call it rebuilding. i'd consider it more renovating. it's not a total teardown, just a thourough sprucing up. we have a shot at the playoffs with the team we have. whatever analysts are saying otherwise just have no idea who is on our roster. they see the people we lost and assume it's all over without researching anything about the people we have to replace them.

[thefuzz]

I really really really really hope Fox is extended.

Do I think he is the greatest HC around? Nope, up until this off-season I felt it was the best time for him to move on.

HOWEVER, with what has happened this off-season not bringing him back will completely ruin everything that has been done. The vast majority of these players have been hand picked and drafted to play the specific system that Fox n co want. The purge of older guys is great, but if a new HC comes in and dislikes plenty of the young guys in their place, then we will simply have to get even MORE vets to make up for the purge of the young guys who no longer fit the mould.

How many times has a new FO and taken a liking to the new QB drafted?

How many times has a new FO come in and employed the same system?

How many times do you see a new FO come in and bring 'their' players?

If we do have a change over of coaches after this season, then this whole process could of been completely pointless. More importantly we could see many of the young guys who have not had time to show their stuff get jettisoned in favour of the new coaches 'guys', simply because they have proven nothing. There is a ridiculous amount of potential on this roster, to throw it away now would be crazy.

If Fox is not here next year, and looking at the way some viewed Clausen, we could see the next FO draft a QB early simply because Clausen is not 'their guy'. Clausen might not ever get a proper chance to play here...

I don't really get the bolded part at all.

If the players have talent, and that part is important, the new coaches will embrace them. If the owner has the talent to run a franchise, then he would most likely bring in a new coach that would best fit with his best (highest paid) players.

Just off the top of my head I am going to list a couple of coaching changes where many of the "top" players were kept in place.

Colts

49ers

Chargers

Texans

Steelers

Cowboys

In all of those cases new coaches were brought in, but the star players were not forced off the team. Especially at the QB position.

Each one of these teams have some pretty good building blocks, and each one the current head coaches retired/got fired, and they have kept most of the same systems and players in tact. If you have quality young talent sometimes all you need is a new message/regime to get them over the hump.

[ckad79]

I have no problem with the team deciding to go younger --- moving forward. We do have a lot of talent on this team, talent that hasn't gotten a chance because of our veterans. If it's out with the old, in with the new ... I'm fine with that.

A lot of teams have switched up their approach, cleaned house, and lead to success.

In the beginning, I didn't understand why we were overhauling the entire team and not starting with the coaching staff? I don't agree with that anymore.

Regardless of what anybody believes --- you win through the draft. Signing high profile free agents is sexy but take that away, and it isn't the best way to go! Bill Belichick, the football genius he is, was asked last year if the Patriots would throw big money at Peppers? Bill said, "no!" Why not? Because you take a guy who has spent years in a system, learning that system, and then you expect him to move into something else and be that SAME player? It doesn't work that flawlessly all the time.

Look at Joey Porter. He was a beast in Pittsburgh. Everybody in Miami was bragging about how they landed him! Was he ever the Porter of old again? No! Look at Jay Cutler. Future superstar with Denver - goes to Chicago - struggles. Heck, just look at all the money Washington has thrown at Haynesworth or Antwaan Randle El!!! haha

In fact, I'd argue that most players who sign RECORD contracts --- Payton Manning with the Colts (like a $99M deal), Vick when he was with the Falcons, McNabb with the Eagles ($115 million over 12 years) --- are more often than not, with their original team in a system they know. I can't think of the last time a high profile player left a team to sign for more money and was better than he was before? It's rare. Reggie White going to the Packers, may be one.

Other sports are different. Baseball is one of them, basketball too, because the fundamentals are so universal. With football, there's so many schemes, understanding the guys around you, etc.

Still, I understand the glitz and glamor of signing a high profile free agent and when we don't, our off-season seems boring and frustrating. BUT take away the media circus that comes with it, and it's isn't a bad thing. If anything, it's a good solid philosophy.

It's just best to bring in young kids with fresh minds to learn your system. It just works better that way.

We're still bringing back our old coaching staff and keeping guys who were drafted into our system like Beason and Stewart and Davis, and developing new drafted talent.

Do I think we'll win next year? I believe we'll get off to a slow start but I have confidence in what we're doing. I understand it. We're also not just drafting the BEST guys around, we're actually picking guys who have played in systems, in college, similar to ours. They might pick it up -- quicker than you would believe.

That's just my two cents.

[pantherclaw]

Coaches don't coach just to evaluate. Players don't suit up to go out and lose.

The goals are to win the division, getting into the playoffs. Those goals never change.

Our veteran leaders (gross, smith, williams, beaston, davis) goals are certainly the playoffs and more.

So yes, our goals are to win.

[AceMan]

We are a naive fanbase...

OP, you're not gonna find many posters who support your claim because they don't want to believe it. I mean...who wants to believe your favorite team's #1 goal isn't winning? I predicted this a while back...this season will be an "it is what it is" season. When you put "throw away", fans fear that we don't care about winning at all.

Let's remember...we had plenty of dumbasses believing not too long ago and maybe even now

1.) Fox didn't bury talented players with veterans

2.) Jake actually gives us the best chance to win

3.) We need Jake for competition at QB with Moore

4.) Fox's relationship with Jake had nothing to do with him starting so long

5.) There was always competition at QB in the past

6.) Peppers is a complete bum

Anyway, Fox is not the one in control...JR is. Our goal is to have a youth momvement so we come out on top if there is a lockout. Fox is just working with what JR gives him. There is a great chance Fox will be gone next year because we all know he will get outcoached in the playoffs more than likely. No one cares about "Why would Fox do this if it is his last year...blah blah blah" It isn't about Fox, it's about the team. I for one, love this Youth movement because I've been calling for Fox to stop burying talent for years. But alot of our fans are ignorant. If we go 7-9 or something like that, I KNOW we are gonna have alot of whiners and crap who act like they didn't see it coming.

JR is thinking long-term and I actually agree with his assessment. As long as we're competitive, JR wins. :cheers2:

[carolinanimal]

We are a naive fanbase...

OP, you're not gonna find many posters who support your claim because they don't want to believe it. I mean...who wants to believe your favorite team's #1 goal isn't winning? I predicted this a while back...this season will be an "it is what it is" season. When you put "throw away", fans fear that we don't care about winning at all.

Let's remember...we had plenty of dumbasses believing not too long ago and maybe even now

1.) Fox didn't bury talented players with veterans

2.) Jake actually gives us the best chance to win

3.) We need Jake for competition at QB with Moore

4.) Fox's relationship with Jake had nothing to do with him starting so long

5.) There was always competition at QB in the past

6.) Peppers is a complete bum

Anyway, Fox is not the one in control...JR is. Our goal is to have a youth momvement so we come out on top if there is a lockout. Fox is just working with what JR gives him. There is a great chance Fox will be gone next year because we all know he will get outcoached in the playoffs more than likely. No one cares about "Why would Fox do this if it is his last year...blah blah blah" It isn't about Fox, it's about the team. I for one, love this Youth movement because I've been calling for Fox to stop burying talent for years. But alot of our fans are ignorant. If we go 7-9 or something like that, I KNOW we are gonna have alot of whiners and crap who act like they didn't see it coming.

JR is thinking long-term and I actually agree with his assessment. As long as we're competitive, JR wins. :cheers2:

good post!!

only problem i foresee with our approach (and probably why it isnt done all that often) is that in a couple of years all those young talented guys are going to want new contracts. this will probably be within a year or two of each other. almost like the situation we have now.

[MadHatter]

I swear its amazing how many sensitive people we have on this forum. I think you guys are completly missing the OPs point. Hes saying this season is more about evaluating talent than it is about trying to win championships/divisions/etc. If they make the playoffs GREAT but that would only be a bonus because thats not the real goal. In years past the teams goal was to win the super bowl. When a team says they're going in a youth movement they are telling you in advanced that this a rebuilding season. Thats not being negative or being an "offseason hater" its just reality.

I fully understood the OP's point. However, I still think he is wrong.

We will have at least 10 wins this season....and we WILL make the playoffs.

That is all.

[ed bell]

I'm stickin' with 10-6 because I think the FO made some hard decisions that needed to be made and we have an easier schedule. The team will respond to that. Will 10-6 be enough for the playoffs? It should be, but it may not work out. At any rate, having a team this young compete would be quite a momentum builder. I think we have a good situation here.

[Urrymonster]

I don't really get the bolded part at all.

If the players have talent, and that part is important, the new coaches will embrace them. If the owner has the talent to run a franchise, then he would most likely bring in a new coach that would best fit with his best (highest paid) players.

Just off the top of my head I am going to list a couple of coaching changes where many of the "top" players were kept in place.

Colts

49ers

Chargers

Texans

Steelers

Cowboys

In all of those cases new coaches were brought in, but the star players were not forced off the team. Especially at the QB position.

Each one of these teams have some pretty good building blocks, and each one the current head coaches retired/got fired, and they have kept most of the same systems and players in tact. If you have quality young talent sometimes all you need is a new message/regime to get them over the hump.

Those teams were not in a youth movement, so the elite players had already established themselves and thus it would be idiotic to replace them. They also often only lost a coach, rather than the entire FO which we are in danger of losing.

It happens all the time where the new coach brings in a few players that he has worked with, or drafts players he wants regardless of what young player was drafted the year before.

Examples of this are the Browns moving on Anderson & Quinn, Dolphins with Beck, Mangini brought in a host of old players upon moving to the Jets and then the Browns.

There is a strong chance that many of these young guys we have brought in recently, will in fact be cast out if a new FO comes in and alters the scheme. So whilst I like the proces, we really need to back it up with having a consistent FO, otherwise it's a process that will occur once again when the new FO get in.

[outlaw4]

I have no problem with the team deciding to go younger --- moving forward. We do have a lot of talent on this team, talent that hasn't gotten a chance because of our veterans. If it's out with the old, in with the new ... I'm fine with that.

A lot of teams have switched up their approach, cleaned house, and lead to success.

In the beginning, I didn't understand why we were overhauling the entire team and not starting with the coaching staff? I don't agree with that anymore.

Regardless of what anybody believes --- you win through the draft. Signing high profile free agents is sexy but take that away, and it isn't the best way to go! Bill Belichick, the football genius he is, was asked last year if the Patriots would throw big money at Peppers? Bill said, "no!" Why not? Because you take a guy who has spent years in a system, learning that system, and then you expect him to move into something else and be that SAME player? It doesn't work that flawlessly all the time.

Look at Joey Porter. He was a beast in Pittsburgh. Everybody in Miami was bragging about how they landed him! Was he ever the Porter of old again? No! Look at Jay Cutler. Future superstar with Denver - goes to Chicago - struggles. Heck, just look at all the money Washington has thrown at Haynesworth or Antwaan Randle El!!! haha

In fact, I'd argue that most players who sign RECORD contracts --- Payton Manning with the Colts (like a $99M deal), Vick when he was with the Falcons, McNabb with the Eagles ($115 million over 12 years) --- are more often than not, with their original team in a system they know. I can't think of the last time a high profile player left a team to sign for more money and was better than he was before? It's rare. Reggie White going to the Packers, may be one.

Other sports are different. Baseball is one of them, basketball too, because the fundamentals are so universal. With football, there's so many schemes, understanding the guys around you, etc.

Still, I understand the glitz and glamor of signing a high profile free agent and when we don't, our off-season seems boring and frustrating. BUT take away the media circus that comes with it, and it's isn't a bad thing. If anything, it's a good solid philosophy.

It's just best to bring in young kids with fresh minds to learn your system. It just works better that way.

We're still bringing back our old coaching staff and keeping guys who were drafted into our system like Beason and Stewart and Davis, and developing new drafted talent.

Do I think we'll win next year? I believe we'll get off to a slow start but I have confidence in what we're doing. I understand it. We're also not just drafting the BEST guys around, we're actually picking guys who have played in systems, in college, similar to ours. They might pick it up -- quicker than you would believe.

That's just my two cents.

I like the way you think.

Still, I'm in the camp that thinks this upcoming season will be unlike any other. The suddenness of losing so many veterans makes me wonder whether they can fill that void, not only in terms of performance, but in terms of leadership. It's one thing to play well when the team is all but out of playoff contention and expectations are low. It's another when these young players are suddenly thrown into the limelight and are expected to meet or exceed the ones that have departed. Will they rise up and face those challenges head on and succeed or will they crumble at the first sign of adversity and suffocate? It only gets more complicated with a lame duck coach that we don't know whether he's either going to do the best job possible to not only succeed but to get an extension or just collect his pay because he feels he's only keeping the seat warm for someone else?

For next year, the Carolina Panthers is a little kid being thrown into the deep side of the pool for the first time. It's either going to swim ahead or sink right to the bottom and who knows whether daddy Fox is going to bother to help or not.

[panthers55]

Those teams were not in a youth movement, so the elite players had already established themselves and thus it would be idiotic to replace them. They also often only lost a coach, rather than the entire FO which we are in danger of losing.

It happens all the time where the new coach brings in a few players that he has worked with, or drafts players he wants regardless of what young player was drafted the year before.

Examples of this are the Browns moving on Anderson & Quinn, Dolphins with Beck, Mangini brought in a host of old players upon moving to the Jets and then the Browns.

There is a strong chance that many of these young guys we have brought in recently, will in fact be cast out if a new FO comes in and alters the scheme. So whilst I like the proces, we really need to back it up with having a consistent FO, otherwise it's a process that will occur once again when the new FO get in.

Very good point.

The fact that Richardson doesn't want to give Fox an extension indicates a good chance that he will be replaced next year and I have heard at least one writer suggest that by failing to lock up any of the assistants, they were allowing the new coach to develop his staff without having to pay off the contracts of any of the old coaches. While the new coach could retain several assistants there is no guarantee they wouldn't just go with Fox to his next job.

If JR thought Fox is doing a good job he would have given him at least 2 or 3 years to build our team back into a playoff team. When was the last time that a team remade the roster like we have without giving the coach time to build the team. I don't think JR is setting Fox up so much as he is hoping he can do what he did in 2004 when he took a bunch of backups and nobodies and finished up 6-2 after injuries decimated the team and led them to a 1-7 start.

If he doesn't do it this time we could get a coach that could continue the current process or go in a different direction altogether. Do you want to hear a conspiracy theory? What if not signing Davis to a long term contract is at least partly due to not wanting to sign a player who would most certainly not fit into another defensive scheme like a 3-4. This whole process could be repeated in 12 months. Maybe the

lack of any long term contracts other than Gamble allows the new coach to do another fruitbasket turnover. I wonder how many of the new additions and current players could make the transistion to another scheme.

For me it makes me want to see the team and Fox excel beyond everyone's expectations ( the ones outside of the huddle). The irony would be in doing really well and still leaving for another team he perceives has an owner and fans who hold him in much higher esteem than many of the fans here.

All of these changes might just be the tip of the iceburg................