A little perspective (wide receivers)...

[thennek]

Because the Panthers are supposedly a run first team, they seem to only bring in certain types of WR. These types are typically slow, and are good blockers. They would never consider a DeSean Jackson in this offense. I think it is the 'type of WR they want for this offense' as much as it is the personnel they bring in. There is nothing wrong with 'run first' but there needs to be a respectable passing game for it to work.

[Montsta]

Most, if not all, the best home run hitters also strike out the most often. So spin that analogy as you will.

[bleys]

Most, if not all, the best home run hitters also strike out the most often. So spin that analogy as you will.

I agree.. 1st step.. swing the bat..

[Montsta]

I agree.. 1st step.. swing the bat..

Exactly. I know the media gets all over Jerrrah Jones for constantly striking out on FA (lol @ Williams trade), but at least you can't say the guy isn't trying to win football games. I guess the grass truly is always greener as they say.

[Mr. Scot]

I understand the desire to go the free agent route given the lack of success in drafting. Still, some of you guys talk like you think free agents never turn out to be busts.

In reality they most assuredly can do just that, and eat up loads of cap while doing it (at least in prior year conditions).

Throw in that you're talking about a team whose pro player personnel department isn't what it once was.

Signing a guy who was great elsewhere doesn't guarantee anything, at any position, receiver included.

If you doubt that, just ask teams that gave up money/picks to get Roy Williams, Alvin Harper and our own Donald Hayes.

Free agency can be just as big a crap shoot as the draft.

[MaineManPanther]

Keyshawn was old and Hackett wasn't exactly proven other than a few good games (1 being a great game in the playoffs), besides he was highly injury prone.. regardless, neither have the skill set as Bolden or Marshall..

I find those excuses to come up short in this argument.. but that's just me.. I would like to think it's obvious to others as well..

let's look at the names (as I have not forgotten):

Keyshawn

Hackett

Moose (was brought back via FA, so he does count, technically.. although I see your point.. )

I don't think those names compare to the likes of Bolden or Marshall..

now.. Keyshawn, against popular belief, was actually a solid contributor.. so really, that DID work out well.. but he wasn't a game changer... and we could have had game changers...

so the issue isn't FA.. it's who did we go for? non-game changers, some at the end of their career -vs- 2 prolific players who are top receivers in the league..

hardly a comparison to make with the sole purpose of saying FA is a bad route... maybe Fox/Hurney/whoever needs to analyze WHY those FA acquisitions failed..

We dont need game changing WR's for this offence.

Marshall made the most sence to get as far as the "youth" argument went. But the asking price of two second round picks and a huge contract is steep.

Boldin was considerbly cheaper. But the guy turns 30 in a week. With us playing how they are in 2010, and with 2011 up in the air, 2012 is when he could make any important impact, by then he's 32 with three young third year WR's sitting behind him. Bolidn would just be a Band Aid.

[rayzor]

One of the things i remember seeing that hurney talked about on the radio a couple days ago was his reasoning for not going after a WR in free agency. he said that WRs typically do their best with the team that drafted them. part of me thought that was just an excuse but i thought there might be some validity to it. i did a little digging (very little) and this is what i saw.

i looked at the top 20 WRs from the past 5 years to see who showed up and how many teams they had been with.

(if there isn't a number beside them it's their original team)

'09:

andre johnson, randy moss (3rd), miles austin, larry fitzgerald, reggie wayne, roddy white, sidney rice, brandon marshall, steve smith (NYG), marques colston, wes welker (2nd), chad 85, santonio holmes

'08:

fitz, andre johnson, calvin johnson, greg jennings, roddy white, steve smith (Car), boldin, antonio bryant (4th), randy moss (3rd), TO (3rd), lance moore, vincent jackson, reggie wayne, hines ward, dwayne bowe, santana moss (2nd), bernard berrian, kevin walter, wes welker (2nd)

'07:

randy moss (3rd), TO (3rd), braylon edwards, wayne, fitz, chad 85, housh, colston, burress (2nd), marshall, welker (2nd), jennings, holt, roddy white, bobby engram, kevin curtis (2nd), holmes, smitty, boldin, derrick mason (2nd),

'06:

marvin harrison, TO (3rd), wayne, chad 85, holt, lee evans, roy williams, donald driver, smitty, housh, burress (2nd), javon walker, darrell jackson, colston, joey galloway (2nd), laverneus coles (3rd (well, technically but he started out with jets, moved to redskins, then went back to jets...not that it matters)), andre johnson, mike furrey(2nd), boldin, terry glenn (3rd)

'05:

smitty, santana moss (2nd), fitz, chad 85, galloway (2nd), holt, harrison, boldin, chris chambers, hines ward, burress (2nd), glenn (3rd) driver, randy moss (2nd), rod smith, keenan mccardell (3rd), eddie kennison (5th), jimmy smith, housh, donte stallworth

last year there were 2 in the top 20 from multiple teams, in '08: 5, in '07: 6, in '06: 7, and in '05: 7.

a couple things i noticed from those is that there were only 14 out of 50 players in the past 5 years who were in the top 20 after being with a team that they didn't start out with. also i noticed that many players that had been listed in the top 20 disappeared form it once they went to another team...even if they had shown up a couple times in the list.

there's probably more that you could draw from this but i have to admit , there might be something to what hurney said. i dont like that we didn't go after someone like boldin or housh but the success rate for players who leave their original team isn't all that good.

btw...might not be the conclusive top 20 list but that doesn't matter, it's more the sample i was looking at of 20 of the best WRs from those years. i used the rankings from fftoday.com in case you're curious. you could probably take any top 20 WR list from those years and find about the same results.

[weyco2000]

I say cut Jarrett and sign Kenny Moore, "Big Cat" ain't making any trades... and I agree with him, Fox won't be back and we are facing a lock out. You may hate him, but he is a smart man. I have a funny feeling that after the season, many veteran players will be released and clear more cap space for the next coach. However, the I think he sticks with a run first offense and a more attacking defense.

[rayzor]

for the record, i do wish they had gone after housh or boldin but i can understand their philosophy. to an extent i admire them for sticking with it.

in the past 10 years, 12 teams have drafted 3 WRs...one of them (titans) did it twice. aside from the vikes a couple years ago when they drafted sidney rice there hasn't really been much success come from it...of course there isn't a whole lot of success drafting them anyway. it's pretty much a crap shoot.

only one team has been consistently good enough that hey have only had to draft 5 WRs in 10 years without bringing in any FAs...the colts. in regards to the rest of them, very few have a high record of success (meaning 3 or 4 decent WRs in the past 10 years).

[Snake]

We may have drafted well at some positions but WR- not well at all. LaFell and Gettis may end up being great picks but to say so already is making the same foolish mistake people do when they say someone who doesn't contribute right away is a bust. Look at Colbert. After his rookie year anyone would have said he was a great pick and the sky was the limit. Who knew that he would go downhill from there. LaFell, Gettis and

Edwards all may prove to be great, but that is 1 or 2 years down the road. Until then, we suffer the same lack of production we have all along.

Gettis is the only one you can say right now that is a good pick. He was a 6th round pick that really dose deserve to be starting. No he didn't light up the boards but he showed good hands and speed. He also would have had a TD if not for Moore over throwing him cause he had his man beat by a mile. The sad part is even Smith has had a hard time catching passes from Moore...

[DawgzLife]

QUOTE]

Mr. Scot, maybe you could just stop posting until your bet punishment extinguishes?! That bucs logo combined with that gay sig line makes me nauseous!!!

Kidding about not posting, that would be a huge loss to the forum...but, not lying about the logo or sing line! :ack2:

[panthers55]

I understand the desire to go the free agent route given the lack of success in drafting. Still, some of you guys talk like you think free agents never turn out to be busts.

In reality they most assuredly can do just that, and eat up loads of cap while doing it (at least in prior year conditions).

Throw in that you're talking about a team whose pro player personnel department isn't what it once was.

Signing a guy who was great elsewhere doesn't guarantee anything, at any position, receiver included.

If you doubt that, just ask teams that gave up money/picks to get Roy Williams, Alvin Harper and our own Donald Hayes.

Free agency can be just as big a crap shoot as the draft.

Actually both Roy Williams and Alvin Harper could have been included in the discussion about first round busts. Harper did have big play ability but he never was a true legitimate number 1 receiver, never started 16 games in a season and never had more than 50 catches, 10 TDs, or a 1000 yard season. Hayes was a fourth round draft choice for us who never was that good at all. We didn't resign him after his rookie contract and New England found out why.

The cautionary tale seems to be that regardless of how high they were drafted, if they don't play that well for 3 or 4 years and hit the free agent market, don't expect them to be more than they were. For us you could add Colbert and Carter to the mix. Both guys became free agents and were overpaid by other teams. That doesn't say that picking up free agents is a crap shoot but picking up guys who were never that great to begin with and overpaying for them is a bad idea. Furthermore expecting them to play better for you than they did previously can be a bad assumption to make. Dallas found that out with Roy Williams.

For all his issues and problems TO is a better example for instance. No matter where he went he did well. Even in Buffalo he had 55 catches and 800 yards and that is considered a down year.

Look at Ricky Proehl, Moose (part 2) and Keyshawn Johnson, all old and frankly on the downsides of their career. All three were productive for us despite having little in the tank.

In fact the Panthers history suggests we would do better focusing on free agency rather than rely on the draft as far as wide receivers go.

Since you are the football historian, give me a list of wide receivers who were very productive for their teams, became free agents and then became busts for their new team. Other than due to injury or old age, I doubt that there are as many as those that played well for both.

[bleys]

Actually both Roy Williams and Alvin Harper could have been included in the discussion about first round busts. Harper did have big play ability but he never was a true legitimate number 1 receiver, never started 16 games in a season and never had more than 50 catches, 10 TDs, or a 1000 yard season. Hayes was a fourth round draft choice for us who never was that good at all. We didn't resign him after his rookie contract and New England found out why.

The cautionary tale seems to be that regardless of how high they were drafted, if they don't play that well for 3 or 4 years and hit free agent market, don't expect them to be more than they were. For us you could add Colbert and Carter to the mix. Both guys became free agents and were overpaid by other teams. That doesn't say that picking up free agents is a crap shoot but picking up guys who were never that great to begin with and overpaying for them is a bad idea. Furthermore expecting them to play better for you than they did previously can be a bad assumption to make. Dallas found that out with Roy Williams.

For all his issues and problems TO is a better example for instance. No matter where he went he did well. Even in Buffalo he had 55 catches and 800 yards and that is considered a down year.

Look at Ricky Proehl, Moose (part 2) and Keyshawn Johnson, all old and frankly on the downsides of their career. All three were productive for us despite having little in the tank.

In fact the Panthers history suggests we would do better focusing on free agency rather than rely on the draft as far as wide receivers go.

Since you are the football historian, give me a list of wide receivers who were very productive for their teams, became free agents and then became busts for their new team. Other than due to injury or old age, I doubt that there are as many as those that played well for both.

this.. no one is talking crap shoots in FA.. matter of fact, all we have ever done was go for a sub-par receiver and hope he steps up.. not the point anyone is making.. we did have an opportunity to go for 2 true #1 receivers, and they would not have been a bust.. and Housh was free, we could have made a play for him..

and people might want to step away from "we don't need a #1 receiver".. yes we do. It's called preparation.. and Smitty won't be playing forever.. Get used to the idea of him being a #2...

and I can't believe I forgot about the Rod Gardner experiment...

yeah, we've really made an effort on going for legitimate threats at WR.. lol

[monstercat]

Even if you get the best FA WR in the world, this team is not winning a Superbowl this year, and if that's the case, then why retard the developement of the WR's you just drafted? Is winning 2-3 more games and making the season a hair more respectable worth it? It's not to me. Give these rookies a chance before you make a judgement.