Cam Newton wants to be Big Ben

[lightsout]

Look. You're trying really hard to defend him but when you say things like the bolded, it ruins your argument and it makes it seem like there is a second agenda rather than just getting the best player for the team.

Says the guy who made false claims in regards to 40 times of defensive linemen in the NFL. You made a claim that was made on speculation rather than evidence and got proven wrong with evidence. When YOU say things like THAT, it ruins your argument.

Yes, Cam's speed is nothing special. He out-ran one of the fastest defenses in college football in LSU to the tune of over 200 yards. The only QB in the league that I could see actually being faster is Mike Vick. Outside of him, Newton would be the fastest at the QB position. And CLEARLY, for Vick's whole career, that speed advantage hasn't helped him.

Newton's passing flaws are EASILY fixable, and it would appear he is making the strides to get there. Not guaranteeing that he will be the second coming of Christ, just saying that he is a proven winner. Winners win. That is fact.

[Mr. Scot]

I made a whole picture thread about it last time. It was actually fun.

You should link it or bump it.

who is saying that he needs to start from day 1 and since when have you been in favor of QBs starting from then instead of waiting a couple years?

for the longest time you have been arguing that a QB needs to sit and wait a couple years before getting the start.

It's what I prefer. The point I was making though is that we already have two guys who are two to three year projects on the time. Why on earth do we want to get a third one?

The only kind of QB you take at #1 overall is a guy that can start right away. You can't take a project at that spot.

[panthers55]

You are totally failing on this one bub.

That chart you linked... yeah, it's incomplete.

Every single one of these players in the chart on that Website are ON THE CHART I LINKED HERE and are only the TOP 10 out of 66 DTs and DEs that were in the Combine.

The AVERAGE, again, out of 66, was 4.88.

THe other thing is that top performers in some categories are not top 10 or even first rounders but some guys who didn't even get drafted or drafted way down the line. They made the list beause they were fast not complete or even that good. Plus many of these so called linemen like Arthur Moats are 6 ft 246 lbs and is a linebacker for Buffalo not a defensive lineman so they are totally skewed.

Look at Jarrett Brown who ran a 4.54 at the combine as a quarterback. He was undrafted, cut from the Browns and signed again in January. He is not a legitimate NFL quarterback . Newton has his speed and can throw the ball as well.

The truth is that Newton can unrun all defensive linemen and most linebackers. He could be caught by a corner or safety but I like his chances against a corner who is 6-8 inches shorter and 60 lbs lighter.

I doubt that TRD cares though. He seems to be willing to argue all day and won't change his mind despite evidence to the contrary. It isn't about making a point but outlasting everyone and getting in the last word. I applaude your effort but doubt it will do any good.

[panthers55]

It's what I prefer. The point I was making though is that we already have two guys who are two to three year projects on the time. Why on earth do we want to get a third one?

The only kind of QB you take at #1 overall is a guy that can start right away. You can't take a project at that spot.

THe issue is that if the 2 guys you have are projects and don't have the ability to be a franchise guy, you pick until you get it right. Clausen might be salvageable but Pike would be hard to judge given he got no work. We were going to take Luck if he came out and while folks say he could start day 1 they still expect him to struggle.

The notion that a first round quarterback has to start day 1 is a recent phenomenon not a commonly held idea. Until the recent success of Ryan, Stafford and Flacco, most quarterbacks were groomed and sat behind the starters. It is true that a first round linebacker or corner were expected to play right away but for positions like QB that is the exception not the rule.

If as you postulate, we sign an older vet to play for a year or two, then we have the luxury to groom someone and sit them. I am not saying we will given that Hurney seems to like Clausen a lot, but it wouldn't be that extreme to take one at this point in the first given how poorly Jimmy did last year. At this point though I bet the blame is going to FO and his staff and Jimmy is getting a pass for last year.

[TheRealDeal]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2010/tracker#dt-by-round-input:1/dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:dl

Of the 66 Defensive Linemen in the Combine, 51 were drafted. Here's their draft rank with their 40-yard dash times. CLEARLY speed is NOT a determining factor for Defensive Linemen, and it is absurd to suggest that the average DT or DE can run a 4.7.

Here's a breakdown by OVERALL DRAFT SELECTION.

(NC means they were not at the combine.

DNP means they did not do a 40-yard dash, which is significant since many of them that didn't test for the 40-yard GOT drafted)

That's a pretty legit list. I wonder how many of them are still on NFL rosters though. I never said all linemen are that fast just that it's not uncommon to have fast linemen and that Newton's speed isn't 4.2 like Vick's was. Newton only had 2.2 or so yards per carry against the best defense he faced in his senior season, the defense that many would argue most resembled an NFL defense.

[rayzor]

It's what I prefer. The point I was making though is that we already have two guys who are two to three year projects on the time. Why on earth do we want to get a third one?

The only kind of QB you take at #1 overall is a guy that can start right away. You can't take a project at that spot.

if you aren't sold on the two projects you have with you, and there is absolutely no reason that they should, then you keep trying. newton is a better project than clausen, and a lot better project than pike who really has nothing to bring to the table worthwhile. i don't think he should even be in the conversation.

with clausen and pike there is very little upside. with newton, the upside is through the roof. you want to make an impact, you draft guys that are going to make one. between clasuen, pike, and newton, newton is the one most likely to make an impact.

ideally we would be trading back and then drafting newton, but i wouldn't really care where we drafted him. he's got the most upside of anyone and i have said for months that if we didn't get luck, newton was going to be the QB i want.

if we had to start him from day 1, i do believe that he has enough natural talent to do well. he wouldn't be spectacular, but he would certainly do better than that rookie we had to start this year.

[TheRealDeal]

Says the guy who made false claims in regards to 40 times of defensive linemen in the NFL. You made a claim that was made on speculation rather than evidence and got proven wrong with evidence. When YOU say things like THAT, it ruins your argument.

The claim wasn't false, the top 10 40 times were all under 4.75. It's when the list got expanded that the argument of linemen speed was proved wrong.

[Mr. Scot]

THe issue is that if the 2 guys you have are projects and don't have the ability to be a franchise guy, you pick until you get it right.

if you aren't sold on the two projects you have with you, and there is absolutely no reason that they should, then you keep trying.

If we go that route, we may as well change the team symbol as well, to this:

Regardless of whether we like it or not, Clausen is going to get the chance to prove if he can be the guy this year. As far as getting someone over Pike, I can't buy into using two picks in two drafts on what likely amounts to the third quarterback.

We've got enough youth. Get a couple of veterans in camp - maybe Moore is one of them, maybe even McCown - and take the best three of that bunch into the season.

If it doesn't work out for Clausen - and I suspect it won't - go after your franchise QB next year when there's likely to be more than just one option.

[Sloth]

If we go that route, we may as well change the team symbol as well, to this:

Regardless of whether we like it or not, Clausen is going to get the chance to prove if he can be the guy this year. As far as getting someone over Pike, I can't buy into using two picks in two drafts on what likely amounts to the third quarterback.

We've got enough youth. Get a couple of veterans in camp - maybe Moore is one of them, maybe even McCown - and take the best three of that bunch into the season.

If it doesn't work out for Clausen - and I suspect it won't - go after your franchise QB next year when there's likely to be more than just one option.

Pike was a 6th round comp pick. He should have no more bearing on our QB plans than RJ Stanford does in regards to CB.

So we have one developmental guy who showed nothing to build on, one FA who choked when called upon.. and a 6th round comp pick. We also will be heading to the draft with no free agency and no idea which vet might be here next year.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we draft a QB and it wouldn't make us the Lions.

[Mr. Scot]

Pike was a 6th round comp pick. He should have no more bearing on our QB plans than RJ Stanford does in regards to CB.

So we have one developmental guy who showed nothing to build on, one FA who choked when called upon.. and a 6th round comp pick. We also will be heading to the draft with no free agency and no idea which vet might be here next year.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we draft a QB and it wouldn't make us the Lions.

You can't make plans for a roster based on no free agency because if there's no CBA, there's no season.

There's not a single QB in the bunch that I'd take number one overall. None.

No second round pick - barring a trade up or down - and we do have other needs that could stand to be addressed with the third.

Once you get to the fourth round and on, what's the point? You may as well stick with the guy you have that's at least got a year of pro practice under his belt.

[Snake]

THe other thing is that top performers in some categories are not top 10 or even first rounders but some guys who didn't even get drafted or drafted way down the line. They made the list beause they were fast not complete or even that good. Plus many of these so called linemen like Arthur Moats are 6 ft 246 lbs and is a linebacker for Buffalo not a defensive lineman so they are totally skewed.

Look at Jarrett Brown who ran a 4.54 at the combine as a quarterback. He was undrafted, cut from the Browns and signed again in January. He is not a legitimate NFL quarterback . Newton has his speed and can throw the ball as well.

The truth is that Newton can unrun all defensive linemen and most linebackers. He could be caught by a corner or safety but I like his chances against a corner who is 6-8 inches shorter and 60 lbs lighter.

I doubt that TRD cares though. He seems to be willing to argue all day and won't change his mind despite evidence to the contrary. It isn't about making a point but outlasting everyone and getting in the last word. I applaude your effort but doubt it will do any good.

I agree and this just shows his work ethic and his strive to be better. Whoever gets Newton will get a good QB. Also I just use the ignore on TRD now because he adds nothing to threads.

You should link it or bump it.

It's what I prefer. The point I was making though is that we already have two guys who are two to three year projects on the time. Why on earth do we want to get a third one?

The only kind of QB you take at #1 overall is a guy that can start right away. You can't take a project at that spot.

See thats the kind of logic that had us keeping Weinkie, Brett Basanez, and LaFlores. We were just standing back waiting for all those guys to develop till it was too late. We need a true project not some stop gap ones. I really hope Clausen becomes good but im not kidding myself with pike. He could be gone as soon as this year and forget about Null.

[blackcatgrowl]

If we go that route, we may as well change the team symbol as well, to this:

Regardless of whether we like it or not, Clausen is going to get the chance to prove if he can be the guy this year. As far as getting someone over Pike, I can't buy into using two picks in two drafts on what likely amounts to the third quarterback.

We've got enough youth. Get a couple of veterans in camp - maybe Moore is one of them, maybe even McCown - and take the best three of that bunch into the season.

If it doesn't work out for Clausen - and I suspect it won't - go after your franchise QB next year when there's likely to be more than just one option.

How are you comparing Detroit to us? John Kitna, a Veteran, was their QB at the start of the 2008 0-16 season, and wound up on Injured Reserve.

Since then, they've had Stafford, who's been their starter all along, but plagued with injuries.

Neither one of these guys have been total failures like what happened to us with Pickles last year.

[TheRealDeal]

The truth is that Newton can unrun all defensive linemen and most linebackers. He could be caught by a corner or safety but I like his chances against a corner who is 6-8 inches shorter and 60 lbs lighter.

I doubt that TRD cares though. He seems to be willing to argue all day and won't change his mind despite evidence to the contrary. It isn't about making a point but outlasting everyone and getting in the last word. I applaude your effort but doubt it will do any good.

You know it was a safety who put the hit on him that hurt him right? A tiny little safety that maybe weighed 200 lbs. How on Earth did this happen?

Also, I've just stated my opinion on what Cam needs to work on. I've never stated that he won't be good in the NFL or that no one should draft him. I've said he shouldn't be taken #1 and is more likely to go around 15. I said if we could take him in that range I wouldn't mind but there is no way he can see the field next year and make an impact.

He just doesn't have the tools yet, just like Clausen. The difference is Cam might be able to develop them with hard work.

[TheRealDeal]

How are you comparing Detroit to us? John Kitna, a Veteran, was their QB at the start of the 2008 0-16 season, and wound up on Injured Reserve.

Since then, they've had Stafford, who's been their starter all along, but plagued with injuries.

Neither one of these guys have been total failures like what happened to us with Pickles last year.

I'm guessing it has more to do with the philosophy rather than the actual position.