PFF ranks the 2025 starting QBs

[frankw]

I mean as far as his size goes it's all over his tape bouncing up and down on his toes in and around the pocket trying to see the field and defenses know this as well as we do but if folks here want to live in never never land and pretend it's not a thing that's their prerogative. Even our head coach has made it a key focal point to get his footwork under control. But it's still something Bryce is going to be tested on early and often no matter how many keystrokes anyone here commits to the narrative it isn't an issue.

[Icege]

8 minutes ago, frankw said:

I mean as far as his size goes it's all over his tape bouncing up and down on his toes in and around the pocket trying to see the field and defenses know this as well as we do but if folks here want to live in never never land and pretend it's not a thing that's their prerogative. Even our head coach has made it a key focal point to get his footwork under control. But it's still something Bryce is going to be tested on early and often no matter how many keystrokes anyone here commits to the narrative it isn't an issue.

So... what metrics for production do you believe display these issues/limitations best?

Are we only using total passing yards, height, and weight thresholds? If so, then what are those thresholds?

[NAS]

13 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Yea, I don't really care what PPF ratings you're trying to talk about, if you think Bryce was the 6th best QB over the final 8 weeks of the season last year, then you're out of your freaking mind.  

You're probably the guy who goes to a strip club and thinks the stripper is in love with you.

The 6th best QB in the league doesn't throw for more than 251 yards only twice in that 8 week span and not even real 300 yards once, just nonsense to think otherwise, drops or WR play aside, it's just crazy talk.

Cam regularly threw for less than 200 yards and nobody questioned he was elite. He averaged 219 yds per game for his career.  You seem to be way too hung up on yards as a stat.  By that definition Jameis Winston should have been MVP by now. 

Edited 4 hours ago by NAS

[frankw]

30 minutes ago, Icege said:

So... what metrics for production do you believe display these issues/limitations best?

Are we only using total passing yards, height, and weight thresholds? If so, then what are those thresholds?

Are you arguing that his height deficiencies and footwork within the pocket have not been a present issue clearly seen on his game tape particularly in the games he struggled in? Because that's simply denying what everyone in this fanbase who have watched the games have seen.

It's interesting how hardline BY fans here quickly and effortlessly pivot from whailing about being victimized to becoming the aggressor and hurling out allegations of bias and hatred.

And at the end of the day while Bryce Young clearly improved significantly from the first two games of the season the reality of the situation is he still finished 42nd in yards per pass attempt behind Mac Jones and tied with Caleb Williams and 38th in passing yards per game behind the likes of Gardner Minshew Aidan O'Connell Drake Maye and Will Levis. Furthermore it took Bryce Young 23 games to surpass Panthers legend Kyle Allen's 13 games worth of passing yardage in 2019. So if your argument is he became a head and shoulders better passer over the course of the second half of the season the reality is we're still waiting to see that growth this season. And there is nothing controversial or vitriolic about saying so from the mind of a rational observer.

Edited 3 hours ago by frankw

[kungfoodude]

These arguments are getting more and more disingenuous from both the pro and anti Bryce crowd.

Bryce looked very good for stretches down the final 8 games. He finally showed glimpses of the guy that was projected as a top QB pick in the draft. Bryce also didn't look like a top 10 NFL QB. 

I think we are so far removed from Prime Cam that we forget what an elite QB looks like. I could tell that when people were losing their minds and simping for Sam Darnold.

This season needs to finally showcase Bryce as a franchise talent. If that doesn't happen, it's time to pivot. There are very few recent examples of QB's struggling or being a mixed bag through the first three seasons of starting and then suddenly becoming frachise caliber players.

[frankw]

I would say the extremes from both camps in these conversations have to do with the blurring of the fact Bryce is a first overall pick and the expectations for that draft slot fair or not far exceed just being a top 20-25 starter amongst your peers.

Regardless. All logical Panthers fans want him to be the answer.

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, frankw said:

I would say the extremes from both camps in these conversations have to do with the blurring of the fact Bryce is a first overall pick and the expectations for that draft slot fair or not far exceed just being a top 20-25 starter amongst your peers.

Regardless. All logical Panthers fans want him to be the answer.

Yeah, these arguments are getting twisted to the point that it's just an airing of old grievances for the 100th time.

No matter what happened in the past, no matter what the "trajectory" is, Bryce has to show why he was a number 1 overall draft pick. 

If people didn't like Cam and what he did for us at QB, I hate to see what poor Bryce is gonna get if he doesn't reach Manning-esque heights. 

[Icege]

42 minutes ago, frankw said:

Are you arguing that his height deficiencies and footwork within the pocket have not been a present issue clearly seen on his game tape particularly in the games he struggled in? Because that's simply denying what everyone in this fanbase who have watched the games have seen.

It's interesting how hardline BY fans here quickly and effortlessly pivot from whailing about being victimized to becoming the aggressor and hurling out allegations of bias and hatred.

And at the end of the day while Bryce Young clearly improved significantly from the first two games of the season the reality of the situation is he still finished 42nd in yards per pass attempt behind Mac Jones and tied with Caleb Williams and 38th in passing yards per game behind the likes of Gardner Minshew Aidan O'Connell Drake Maye and Will Levis. Furthermore it took Bryce Young 23 games to surpass Panthers legend Kyle Allen's 13 games worth of passing yardage in 2019. So if your argument is he became a head and shoulders better passer over the course of the second half of the season the reality is we're still waiting to see that growth this season. And there is nothing controversial or vitriolic about saying so from the mind of a rational observer.

I'm arguing that should those supposed deficiencies, like height or pocket footwork, be as consequential as you and others have claimed, then there would be a clear, observable impact in the data. That's not unreasonable. For example, batted passes are often used as a size-related concern (see: Baker Mayfield), yet Bryce ranked among the lowest in deflections at the line. If his stature is such a limitation, why isn't it showing up there? Or are you suggesting that's why his passing yards fall short of your expectations? If the latter, I would hope that you're not discounting yards left on the field due to drops (of which he led the league in). 

Also, asking for specific, measurable benchmarks isn't aggression... it's accountability. If that feels uncomfortable, it might be worth reflecting on how much of your anti-Bryce argument is grounded in subjective perception rather than objective metrics.

So, again: do you have any specific KPIs beyond total passing yardage, height, and weight that you consider relevant to evaluating whether a QB is top-10? If you want to add YPA and passing yards per game to those metrics, that's fair, just be clear about it. But let's not pretend that asking for clarity is some kind of provocation. I'm simply trying to understand the actual criteria... not just the vibes.

Edited 3 hours ago by Icege

[frankw]

1 minute ago, Icege said:

I'm arguing that should those supposed deficiencies, like height or pocket footwork, are as consequential as you and others have claim, then there should be a clear, observable impact in the data. That's not unreasonable. For example, batted passes are often used as a size-related concern (see: Baker Mayfield), yet Bryce ranked among the lowest in deflections at the line. If his stature is such a limitation, why isn't it showing up there? Or are you suggesting that's why his passing yards fall short of your expectations? If the latter, I would hope that you're not discounting yards left on the field due to drops (of which he led the league in). 

Also, asking for specific, measurable benchmarks isn't aggression... it's accountability. If that feels uncomfortable, it might be worth reflecting on how much of your anti-Bryce argument is grounded in subjective perception rather than objective metrics.

So, again: do you have any specific KPIs beyond total passing yardage, height and weight that you consider relevant to evaluating whether a QB is top-10? If you want to add YPA and passing yards per game to those metrics, that's fair, just be clear about it. But let's not pretend that asking for clarity is some kind of provocation. I'm simply trying to understand the actual criteria... not just the vibes.

We both know there's more that goes into batted passes than just the height of the QB. Most people here have readily acknowledged this and there were numerous discussions about it before we drafted Young.

But if you are presenting a POV that Bryce's height hasn't tied to issues with his footwork then there's nothing anyone is going to be able to say to sway you and you know this. Even beyond the footwork I recall a redzone play where Bryce couldn't see around his right tackle at all where a receiver was waiting practically alone in the end zone for a touchdown. There are real world circumstances that are going to show up over the course of the upcoming season and it's up to Bryce and Dave Canales to make adjustments and do anything they can to mitigate negative instances and yes that begins with Bryce's footwork again.

Thanks for your time. Have a nice weekend.

[NAS]

38 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Bryce looked very good for stretches down the final 8 games. He finally showed glimpses of the guy that was projected as a top QB pick in the draft. Bryce also didn't look like a top 10 NFL QB. 

He had games where he was a top 10 QB that week, vs Saints, Falcons, Eagles, Chiefs, Bucs.  Amazing performances that I think show what he can do consistently.  He must play with confidence to overcome physical limitations where someone like Cam can struggle all game and then win the game at the end by running someone over. Bryce won’t be that and I am fine with it, it’s time for us to move on to the new era. It’s been 5 long years.

Edited 2 hours ago by NAS

[Icege]

35 minutes ago, frankw said:

We both know there's more that goes into batted passes than just the height of the QB. Most people here have readily acknowledged this and there were numerous discussions about it before we drafted Young.

But if you are presenting a POV that Bryce's height hasn't tied to issues with his footwork then there's nothing anyone is going to be able to say to sway you and you know this. Even beyond the footwork I recall a redzone play where Bryce couldn't see around his right tackle at all where a receiver was waiting practically alone in the end zone for a touchdown. There are real world circumstances that are going to show up over the course of the upcoming season and it's up to Bryce and Dave Canales to make adjustments and do anything they can to mitigate negative instances and yes that begins with Bryce's footwork again.

Thanks for your time. Have a nice weekend.

Just to clarify: I'm not arguing that height or footwork can't affect QB play. I'm asking how those concerns translate into measurable, consistent outcomes. That’s the standard we should be applying to all QBs, not just Bryce. If height is such a limitation, then we'd expect to see elevated batted passes or poor pressure evasion. Yet none of that shows up in the data. Bryce was one of the lowest in the league for batted passes and his 16.9 pressure-to-sack ratio is good enough for 9th out of all QBs with 300+ dropbacks. So if you believe footwork tied to height is a meaningful issue, what metric shows that because two that would aren't doing so? This isn't about denying flaws. It's about applying fair, consistent standards because otherwise we're not evaluating performance which means that it's not analysis taking place... it's just going off of the vibes that somebody has consciously decided on.

Citing one red zone play you remember doesn't provide that consistent standard. I don't say that to dismiss your memory, but to emphasize that anecdotal evidence (especially from an avowed skeptic) shouldn’t carry more weight than consistent tape or analytics. For example, there was recently dissonance over Bryce's deep ball accuracy where it was implied that he was inaccurate throwing 20+ yards. Yet, the data and film show otherwise.

And I unfortunately have to still ask since you won't directly answer: What specific metrics do you believe matter when evaluating whether a QB is top-10? You've mentioned YPA and passing yards per game, and that's fair. If that's what you're prioritizing, then let's call that your criteria but clarity matters because it prevents moving goalposts when the data doesn't match one's expectations.

I appreciate the response and hope that your holiday weekend goes well also.

Edited 2 hours ago by Icege

[WUnderhill]

3 hours ago, frankw said:

It's actually interesting you mention Richardson because I've seen it suggested here Bryce will have 500 or more rushing yards and 5-10 rushing touchdowns this year. And if big Anthony Richardson can get hurt carrying the rock what's that tell you about the practicality of thinking Bryce won't?

Bryce Young is far less risky with his body when he runs than Richardson and doesn’t take many unnecessary big hits. Was much more worried about injury when he had that abysmal OL his rookie season than I ever would be when he runs/scrambles. 500/10 seems like a fairly reasonable prediction considering he had 250/6 in 12 starts last season. Of course literally anybody CAN get hurt, it’s just that we were assured by many huddlers that it was a sure thing with Bryce Young that he wouldn’t make it to this point in his career without significant injuries.

[ForJimmy]

That Falcons game is about as good as it gets. Especially on the road. I know the Falcons defense was bad but he was cooking with Coker, an undrafted rookie get the bulk of the receptions. If your QB has 5 TDs and 0 turnovers he is playing like a top QB, yardage be damned. The big question for me is how consistently can be play the whole season? 
I don’t expect a game like that every week, but I also don’t want to see any performances like the pre benching or that Cowboys game (which was bad post benching). Bryce’s best shot at being the guy is becoming a mini-Burrow who is about as consistent as you can get at the QB position. 

The good news is this QB class should be a fun one. So hopefully Bryce becomes the guy, if not it’s a nice class to let DC pick his QB and they should come into a great situation with a good OL, RB, young talented WRs etc…

[Icege]

3 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

Bryce Young is far less risky with his body when he runs than Richardson and doesn’t take many unnecessary big hits. Was much more worried about injury when he had that abysmal OL his rookie season than I ever would be when he runs/scrambles. 500/10 seems like a fairly reasonable prediction considering he had 250/6 in 12 starts last season. Of course literally anybody CAN get hurt, it’s just that we were assured by many huddlers that it was a sure thing with Bryce Young that he wouldn’t make it to this point in his career without significant injuries.

It's also worth noting that Cam himself said that he felt safer when running vs. sitting in the pocket because he could see the contact coming and could better prepare for it.

A QB running the ball doesn't have to be a sledgehammer. He just has to be effective.

Edited 2 hours ago by Icege