The Bryce Young "Game Winning Drive" narrative needs to end

[panthers55]

Just now, electro's horse said:

Your argument is wrong. By 2005 the defense was basically just peppers and Ken Lucas. We can argue about how good peppers was and what that’s worth, but the defense right now is certainly better than it was in 2005. 2004 was peppers and 8 games of mark fields. 

as it stands right now the team is way better than it was in 2005, minus Steve smith being a god and Bryce being far worse than Jake by any metric you want. Hell right nonw the defense is top ten ish. 

and again the team talent has nothing to do with him imploding agains the cardinals or jags, or him doing nothing against the falcons, or the fumbles, or his first start against the dolphins who are one of the two or three worst teams in the league. 

You seem to have left out some guys from 2005. Our linebackers included Dan Morgan who was a probowler for example in 2004. How about the rest of the D line including Buckner, Al Wallace, Jordan Carstan, and Mike Rucker in addition to Peppers. Shall we talk about safeties including Mike Minter and Thomas Davis or cornerbacks including Chris Gamble in addition to Ken Lucas. And that is just the defense.

No you clearly see what you to see and ignore everything that doesn't fit your agenda.

[strato]

6 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

2004 was the team that got destroyed by injuries and was probably the best team in general of that era. 

05 Jenkins, Davis and Morgan got hurt (again). Other than that they were pretty healthy. 

We opened with Green Bay on MNF as I recall.  Viola, no more Smitty. 

[AceMan]

Jake Delhomme is the most overrated Carolina Panther hands down;

QB1 - 25,467 Passing yards, 136 TDs, 91 INT, 64.2% completion rate, 2 Pro Bowls, played with 2 Pro Bowl WRs

QB2 - 20,975 Passing yards, 126 TDs, 101 INT, 59.4% completion rate, 1 Pro Bowl, played with 2 Pro Bowl WRs

QB3 - 25,537 Passing yards, 161 TDs, 83 INT, 61.6% completion rate, 4 Pro Bowls, played with 3 Pro Bowl WRs

QB4 - 24,153 Passing yards, 149 TDs, 106 INT, 63% completion rate, 3 Pro Bowls, played with 1 Pro Bowl WR

Guess which one is Jake Delhomme??  

Panthers fans will argue Jake Delhomme was a better QB than the other three.

That's all I wanted to say.

Edited 3 hours ago by AceMan

[panthers55]

10 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Went back to check to see for context.  Open to exploring the validity of my stat throwout--

Looking at Delhomme's core 3-year stretch (03-05):   

• 2005 (our best team that just got crazy injured IMO) he had 5 wins w/200+
• 5 as well in 2004
• 4 in 20023.  And 122 in the second half of his Jags debut game.  Section 336 represent!

So that was 14 overall 200+ yard 1 TD+ game winning performances in his first 3 seasons.  

Bryce has 2 winning games where he passed for over 200 yards in nearly the same time frame.  We have an extra game per season so we're not far off the total games.  7 to go to match. 

Currently, it's 2 (BY) vs. 14 (JD)

    

Thanks for the research.Two  comments. Shouldn't we at least give Bryce the rest of this year before we try and compare? And do you really think Bryce has had half the talent around him that Jake did his first 2 years. And a third comment. I can think of at least 3 games last year where Bryce did bring us back at the end only to have the defense give it away. I do have to give credit to Jake for 2004. Given all the injuries I would say the talent on that team on offense might have been comparable to what Bryce had last year. Jake won 7 and Bryce won 5.  Otherwise the talent wasn't even close to what Jake had. I don't include this year until it is over.

[strato]

Stat trickery. He was a lot more than that. He showed better in the SB tha Cam did IMO. With a lot less physical ability. 
 

 

[CRA]

38 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Without a point by point rebuttal I would argue the defensive talent Jake had was consistently better than Bryce has had meaning he didn't have to be great to win.

And lets be real while Bryce has had better talent each year, this squad is the only one where you would say .any players are NFL quality. We were bringing guys to play line off the streets last year. We did seem to.learn our lesson by giving Bryce depth on the line given we have lost 2 starters  for the seasoned other guys who games.

What you see is your remembrance of the games you saw colored by your own filter  which doesn't necessarily  make it true.

that's a wild statement. 

Bryce had the most expensive OL in the NFL last year and it was healthy.  With a solid backfield.    Which is what every QB wants. 

[Shotgun]

1 hour ago, electro's horse said:

Jake got so much crap that it was a long lasting rumor that he was married to hurneys daughter, and there were calls in 2005 to bench him for Chris weinke on this very message board. 

Jake will always be one of my favorite players but I have never heard one good word about him from anyone that wasn't a panthers fan....ever. Non panthers fans think of Delhomme as one of the worst QBs of all time. lol

[Bear Hands]

12 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Thanks for the research.Two  comments. Shouldn't we at least give Bryce the rest of this year before we try and compare? And do you really think Bryce has had half the talent around him that Jake did his first 2 years. And a third comment. I can think of at least 3 games last year where Bryce did bring us back at the end only to have the defense give it away. I do have to give credit to Jake for 2004. Given all the injuries I would say the talent on that team on offense might have been comparable to what Bryce had last year. Jake won 7 and Bryce won 5.  Otherwise the talent wasn't even close to what Jake had. I don't include this year until it is over.

Yeah I was just doing the Jake thing because it was asked.  Wasn't originally looking to compare Jake to Bryce. 

I was noting what I did to show the majority of Bryce's wins were largely propelled by a big run game and defensive efforts.  There are only a few where he legitimately showed he could will the team down field, regardless of what we were doing on the ground.  

He's still making progress, not shutting him entirely out (I've been damn close).  I think it's something to recognize because I think this type of trait is huge.  If we're in an important game, someone goes down and he needs to pass to win.  Well, we need to be able to comfortably look to him to do just that.  Just haven't seen it yet.  

[electro's horse]

28 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I was thinking the NFCC year where we ran Nick Goings.  Moose was out, all RBs, just depleted on offense.  

Moose played for Chicago in 2005.

goings ran against Seattle because foster got hurt against the bears. Goings lasted one play in Seattle. 

[electro's horse]

35 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You seem to have left out some guys from 2005. Our linebackers included Dan Morgan who was a probowler for example in 2004. How about the rest of the D line including Buckner, Al Wallace, Jordan Carstan, and Mike Rucker in addition to Peppers. Shall we talk about safeties including Mike Minter and Thomas Davis or cornerbacks including Chris Gamble in addition to Ken Lucas. And that is just the defense.

Morgan “played” 13 games in 2005 but didn’t finish a lot of them and was generally pretty beat up. Got taken out of several games with “shoulder stingers.” 2005 was the season his concussions just became too much and he’s said so in interviews. We know this now looking back.  This was around the time they started writing all the stories about his hyperbaric sleep chamber and special mouth pieces etc. he couldn’t stay on the field  

Rucker, Buckner and Minter were all washed. Buckner retired after the season.  

al Wallace and Jordan Carstens were rotational players?

thomas Davis was a rotational safety in 2005 who only started two games. Secondary in general was pretty bad. Gamble specifically regressed notably. Passing defense was 21st in the nfl. And gamble is probably the most overrated defensive player in panthers history.  

 

Edited 2 hours ago by electro's horse

[Bear Hands]

6 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Moose played for Chicago in 2005.

goings ran against Seattle because foster got hurt against the bears. Goings lasted one play in Seattle. 

Damn I'm losing my memory. 

I was still thinking 2005 -- that was the NFFC year, but you're right about 04 being injury crippled one.  

05 was injury ridden towards the end at RB (which made me think we had more guys out)...but that was Smitty's triple crown year where he was NFL highlight reel to the max.  If we were at full strength, we could've gone back to the SB IMO.

 

[panthers55]

11 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Yeah I was just doing the Jake thing because it was asked.  Wasn't originally looking to compare Jake to Bryce. 

I was noting what I did to show the majority of Bryce's wins were largely propelled by a big run game and defensive efforts.  There are only a few where he legitimately showed he could will the team down field, regardless of what we were doing on the ground.  

He's still making progress, not shutting him entirely out (I've been damn close).  I think it's something to recognize because I think this type of trait is huge.  If we're in an important game, someone goes down and he needs to pass to win.  Well, we need to be able to comfortably look to him to do just that.  Just haven't seen it yet.  

Don't know what you are referring to but how many games did the defense win for us last Year? Seems to me they lost us some games that would have been wins after Bryce brought us back

[Bear Hands]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Don't know what you are referring to but how many games did the defense win for us last Year? Seems to me they lost us some games that would have been wins after Bryce brought us back

I'm speaking over the span since he started, isolated on our wins with him as a starter.  There were a few games (I.E. Houston, Atl, etc. where we held then to under 15 points).  But yes, our defense has been doodie, and they by no means have won us games outright.  

Not trying to say our defense won us those games.  But some of their efforts helped combined with the run game.  

[electro's horse]

6 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Damn I'm losing my memory. 

I was still thinking 2005 -- that was the NFFC year, but you're right about 04 being injury crippled one.  

05 was injury ridden towards the end at RB (which made me think we had more guys out)...but that was Smitty's triple crown year where he was NFL highlight reel to the max.  If we were at full strength, we could've gone back to the SB IMO.

 

No one was beating Seattle in Seattle that year. Certainly not whomever won between Chicago and Carolina. That game was a war zone  

we would have needed the redskins to pull off the upset.