shough vs tmac off rookie of the year

[cranky]

11 minutes ago, CRA said:

Starts vs starts is apples to apples.

starts vs letting 4th and 3rd quarter appearances skew one persons per game stats and not the other is apples and grapefruits. 

No it isn't. Starting against an easy defense is nothing like starting against a stout defense. 

There is nothing fairer than comparing their performance against the same teams. 

You just don't like it because it makes your boy look bad. 

[jb2288]

4 hours ago, CRA said:

in starts, he has played better, been more efficient and outproduced Bryce by virtually every statistical metric that exists in 2025.  And has the 2 head to heads over Carolina. 

I mean, your jaw should hit the floor.  But not for the reason you are implying.  That freaking stings.  Denying these realities isn't going to help the Panthers build a better team going forward. 

 

 

You said he has every statistical metric in 2025 and then your whole argument is subjective. He does have the 2 wins head to head I’ll give him that. I’ll take the guy that is 11-5 TD to INT ratio over the other guys same starting period. Shough is good for a rookie but let’s not lose our minds just yet. 

[CRA]

Player A - 2 starts.  200 yards in each start. He averages 200 yards a game. 

Player B - 1 start.  Throws for 400 yards.  Comes in another random game and has 1 pass attempt on a Hail Mary to end the game that goes incomplete.   Now given the random game he appeared for a snap, he averages 200 yards a game.

Thats why you isolate starts. If you are talking starter vs someone who began as a backup.  Simple made up numbers/situations to illustrate the point. 

[CRA]

9 minutes ago, jb2288 said:

You said he has every statistical metric in 2025 and then your whole argument is subjective. He does have the 2 wins head to head I’ll give him that. I’ll take the guy that is 11-5 TD to INT ratio over the other guys same starting period. Shough is good for a rookie but let’s not lose our minds just yet. 

Someone else claimed I said EVERY.  Literally in my post breaking it down it gave Bryce TDs per game.   Shough however has the majority in his favor if just looking at starts.

whats subjective about comp %, yards, QB ratings and turnovers?  Now I guess the argument one might make off them could be subjective.  But all I’m saying is statistically as a starter he has been better this year overall. 

I don’t think Shough is great.  I think he is impressive based on the situation.  2nd rounder stepping in on a bad team.   And he like so many other QBs…..serves as little red flag going off about what we are doing here offensively. 

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Player A - 2 starts.  200 yards in each start. He averages 200 yards a game. 

Player B - 1 start.  Throws for 400 yards.  Comes in another random game and has 1 pass attempt on a Hail Mary to end the game that goes incomplete.   Now given the random game he appeared for a snap, he averages 200 yards a game.

Thats why you isolate starts. If you are talking starter vs someone who began as a backup.  Simple made up numbers/situations to illustrate the point. 

Yards a game works better over a longer period of time as well. Averages always work out over the long run. The smaller the sample size the easier it is to skew. Also opponents matter more when the size is small. Player 1 lights up 2 bad defenses in 4 starts vs Player 2 playing 10 games vs multiple defenses. It hard to make it apples to apples how it currently sits. Remember during Bryce’s little run last year how annoyed you were when people were pulling Bryce’s starts from week 9 on vs the whole season. 

[cranky]

Just now, CRA said:

Player A - 2 starts.  200 yards in each start. He averages 200 yards a game. 

Player B - 1 start.  Throws for 400 yards.  Comes in another random game and has 1 pass attempt on a Hail Mary to end the game that goes incomplete.   Now given the random game he appeared for a snap, he averages 200 yards a game.

Thats why you isolate starts. If you are talking starter vs someone who began as a backup.  Simple made up numbers/situations to illustrate the point. 

A QB's average yards thrown is a pretty useless stat to measure them buy. They could average 300 yards a game but yards don't score points, TD's do. 

 

[L-TownCat]

TMac needs just 76 more yards to break 1k, and only 9 more than that to break the Panthers Rookie receiving yards record set by Kelvin Benjamin.

If he can haul in at least 45 yards in each of the next 2 games he’ll have it.

 

[strato]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Yards a game works better over a longer period of time as well. Averages always work out over the long run. The smaller the sample size the easier it is to skew. Also opponents matter more when the size is small. Player 1 lights up 2 bad defenses in 4 starts vs Player 2 playing 10 games vs multiple defenses. It hard to make it apples to apples how it currently sits. Remember during Bryce’s little run last year how annoyed you were when people were pulling Bryce’s starts from week 9 on vs the whole season. 

That is true. There is also the eyeball test.  Which can fool you because you can’t see decision making so easily but the physical ability is usually pretty trustworthy.  
But I feel like most people can learn what not to do. Unless you are Will Levis lol, and maybe even he can.  

[strato]

1 minute ago, L-TownCat said:

TMac needs just 76 more yards to break 1k, and only 9 more than that to break the Panthers Rookie receiving yards record set by Kelvin Benjamin.

If he can haul in at least 45 yards in each of the next 2 games he’ll have it.

 

For me he needs to do that this week so it is 16 games.  Otherwise, asterisk. 

[CRA]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Yards a game works better over a longer period of time as well. Averages always work out over the long run. The smaller the sample size the easier it is to skew. Also opponents matter more when the size is small. Player 1 lights up 2 bad defenses in 4 starts vs Player 2 playing 10 games vs multiple defenses. It hard to make it apples to apples how it currently sits. Remember during Bryce’s little run last year how annoyed you were when people were pulling Bryce’s starts from week 9 on vs the whole season. 

I got no issue looking at common opponents in starts. 

But you couldn’t for example use Seattle after this weekend and say Bryce did X and Shough had 0 passing yards.  Seattle represents a game that skews his small sample size. 

Jets? Tampa? Miami? Atlanta? Rams? That’s all would be relevant in a convo about those two. Seattle wouldn’t 

[CRA]

15 minutes ago, cranky said:

A QB's average yards thrown is a pretty useless stat to measure them buy. They could average 300 yards a game but yards don't score points, TD's do. 

 

No one is making any argument purely off of yards

we also happen to be 27th in scoring and living in the same neighborhood as the Saints in that department and scoring % of drives.  There QB doing more lifting moving the ball and our RBs factoring more. 

[mav1234]

8 minutes ago, CRA said:

No one is making any argument purely off of yards

we also happen to be 27th in scoring and living in the same neighborhood as the Saints in that department and scoring % of drives.  There QB doing more lifting moving the ball and our RBs factoring more. 

It's true that we are not scoring at a much higher clip than the Saints. They're averaging ~18.4 with Shough and in that same span we're averaging ~19, so pretty close, despite Bryce having better TD numbers over that period. Both our teams are a far, far cry from the NFL average of 23.3...

Edited 1 hour ago by mav1234

[CRA]

Just now, mav1234 said:

It's true that we are not scoring at a much higher clip than the Saints. They're averaging ~18.4 with Shough and in that same span we're averaging ~19, so pretty close, despite Bryce having way better TD numbers over that period. Both our teams are a far, far cry from the NFL average of 23.3...

and one is lead by 3rd year starter we are debating a contract and big decisions  on soon…..and one by a rookie 2nd rounder thrust into the gig.  

which is the entire point.  And we are talking Tyler freaking Shough.  Not Drake Drake Maye Maye.   Which is really the type QB that should be brought up.  Actual good young QB play 
 

[cranky]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

No one is making any argument purely off of yards

we also happen to be 27th in scoring and living in the same neighborhood as the Saints in that department and scoring % of drives.  There QB doing more lifting moving the ball and our RBs factoring more. 

You keep confusing team stats with QB stats. 

While the TEAM may be 27th in scoring, Young, as I pointed out earlier, is 14th in TD% (TD's as a percentage of total yards throw). So he is pretty efficient at scoring passing TD's. If there is a problem, it might be that they have only scored 8 rushing TDs and Young was one of them. For comparison, the Falcons have 16.

So as you can see, a TEAMS ability to score isn't wholly dependent on the QB and isn't a very good metric to measure them by.