Defensive Linemen Taken in the 1st Round of the NFL Draft over past two years

[DaCityKats]

Also you should've only posted DT's that play DT or NT the majority of the time.

My Argument was never that there wasn't a Suh in this draft, it was that there isn't a DT worth a top 10 pick. Hell, there isn't a DT worth a top 15 pick. At least not the ones most on here are talking about. "Poe and Brockers" The player that should be the top rated DT in this class at the moment would be Cox.

Do you see the Panther's drafting Cox at 9?

yes i would.pass rusher with major upside. 3 year starter in the SEC.

[Ivan The Awesome]

Whomever the FO feels is best. I'm fine with any. As long as we address the most wanting aspect of our team-the DL.

....that was the most bland answer I've ever seen you write. I know you are vocal about your opinions. I just want to know who that would be, whether you like a certain DT over a DE or vice versa.

What are your thoughts on Brockers, Cox, Still?

What about Coples, Ingram, Perry, etc?

Personally I'm thinking Cox over all the DT's. As far as DE's I can't see us not taking Coples if he's there. I'm not falling for Poe just yet. I knew he would shoot up the boards but there is something about a guy that didn't produce so much. He's still a specimen, don't know if he should be taken at 9 though.

[iamcline]

I think 'BPA' should be outlawed here until after the draft. It's a term being slung around like money in the Saints locker room.

[JawnyBlaze]

Anderson is a better OLB than any DT we have is at DT. By a lot. In other words he's a very solid but unspectacular OLB. Easily a starting quality LB. We don't have a DT that's easily a starting quality DT.

[panthers55]

What I laugh about are shoddy posts like the OP post. Jumbling DEs and DTs together, saying they all contributed with no stats or facts so we can make up our own mind whether the premise is true rather than blindly accepting the OP's premise.

Maybe it is true, maybe not who would know without any facts either way. Totally useless post which doesn't prove whether the concept has validity or not. You wonder if he did the work to begin with and formulated the idea after fact gathering or had an agenda before hand so the facts don't really matter.

[davos]

So there seems to be this delusional myth by this certain segment of awkward people whom are overly obsessed with the term "BPA."

They seem to think, contrary to the evidence, that a DT takes 9 years to finally be able to contribute to a team. So I figured I'd post this here, and every time they say something to you like that in the future, you can point your finger and laugh and stuff.

Disclaimer: Frankly, I wanted to do a five year span, but began to wonder why I'm even bothering argue what is so apparent to everyone else, so this will have to do for now.

...

If the guys in the NFL offices feel there are good DLmen (which they obviously do..no e-nerd screaming zomg but he isn't Suh is going to sway the opinion of a fanbase who saw what the entire world saw last year-that our DT's arent good. (:eek6:)

Edit: For those who may be curious, the 2007 and 2009 drafts were also good for DLmen. '08 was poor but also saw like only four guys taken, so what does that tell you? I won't be bothered to write all it down...this is where you must became and man and type "Google" into your browser all by your lonesome.

really dude? We get that you're trying to act snarky and all but you're not convincing enough. Your good at being the asshole, but you need to check Fiz's playbook on the football side of things to do it correctly up in this mother fuga :)

Please try again

[bleys]

DT is more important, DT can be played well in a player's first season, and while that last thing you said has no relevance to this thread, it sure looks that way at least on the surface, though I'd have to do some more digging.

If a DT is good his first year, chances are he will be a good player. If he isn't, the chances of him turning it around seem slim. That appears to be the trend.

Which obviously doesn't bode well for the whole "Sione Fua will be a magical Samoan powerhouse next season" theory.

First of all, you're shoddy assessment is trying to link a very select few Top 10 talents out of an entire draft to disprove that DT's aren't typically NFL ready and should play really good in their 1st year... Certainly you should see the wide gaping hole in your argument thus far.

Fact remains, it typically takes time to gain technique and strength/conditioning..

[jungleking]

What I laugh about are shoddy posts like the OP post. Jumbling DEs and DTs together, saying they all contributed with no stats or facts so we can make up our own mind whether the premise is true rather than blindly accepting the OP's premise.

Maybe it is true, maybe not who would know without any facts either way. Totally useless post which doesn't prove whether the concept has validity or not. You wonder if he did the work to begin with and formulated the idea after fact gathering or had an agenda before hand so the facts don't really matter.

Perhaps he didn't need to write a doctoral thesis explaining why they are good players to people who follow the league as closely as the average message board poster does. If you would like to see an unending and spirited debate about what stats are relevant and which aren't, and what stats can be negated by situational variables, and whose stats aren't indicative of their actual performance, then go ahead and post the stats yourself. It's been pretty widely reported that most of those guys have had success. Common knowledge and common sense are sometimes better than the alternatives.

[Cat'sGrowl]

First of all, you're shoddy assessment is trying to link a very select few Top 10 talents out of an entire draft to disprove that DT's aren't typically NFL ready and should play really good in their 1st year... Certainly you should see the wide gaping hole in your argument thus far.

Fact remains, it typically takes time to gain technique and strength/conditioning..

Except it isn't about strength, or technique. It's about a talented young defensive tackle prospect being able to come in and perform immediately-which we see here to be true. It also doesn't bode well for the notion that our mid round picks from last year will have some sort of magical epiphany and become great players.

I assumed that the average Huddler would be able to look at this list and know which players had success and which did not, but it's evident some people have to have their hand held every step of the way.

[bleys]

Except it isn't about strength, or technique. It's about a talented young defensive tackle prospect being able to come in and perform immediately-which we see here to be true. It also doesn't bode well for the notion that our mid round picks from last year will have some sort of magical epiphany and become great players.

I assumed that the average Huddler would be able to look at this list and know which players had success and which did not, but it's evident some people have to have their hand held every step of the way.

everything about that position is about strength, conditioning and technique.. Can a guy come in and perform immediately? Sure, depending on how you define "perform". Nothing you have stated takes away from the fact that mid round (and even early round) picks require time to gain technique, strength, conditioning..

How you would need your hand held to understand that an epiphany or magic has nothing to do with requiring time to ingrain better technique and build stamina and strength is the real question here..

[carpanfan96]

Except it isn't about strength, or technique. It's about a talented young defensive tackle prospect being able to come in and perform immediately-which we see here to be true. It also doesn't bode well for the notion that our mid round picks from last year will have some sort of magical epiphany and become great players.

I assumed that the average Huddler would be able to look at this list and know which players had success and which did not, but it's evident some people have to have their hand held every step of the way.

Almost all DT's in the NFL are strong and have loads of talent, yes their is a gap in talent between the best and the worst. However a major ingredient in a DT or DE being successful against the run and the pass in the NFL is technique.

You can have all the talent in the world, but if your technique is shitty then your going to get pushed around by NFL Offensive linemen. Completely ruling out technique is well not very bright. If you look at the DT's you posted, they have talent, but they also play with excellent technique.

Technique is something that Brockers struggles with when rushing the QB a lot and occasionally when defending the run. Not saying that the coaching staff couldn't improve him in that area, but he plays upright which will eliminate his talent in the NFL. So yes, while talent is important so is technique. With out technique all that talent goes to waste.

[bleys]

Almost all DT's in the NFL are strong and have loads of talent, yes their is a gap in talent between the best and the worst. However a major ingredient in a DT or DE being successful against the run and the pass in the NFL is technique.

You can have all the talent in the world, but if your technique is shitty then your going to get pushed around by NFL Offensive linemen. Completely ruling out technique is well not very bright. If you look at the DT's you posted, they have talent, but they also play with excellent technique.

Technique is something that Brockers struggles with when rushing the QB a lot and occasionally when defending the run. Not saying that the coaching staff couldn't improve him in that area, but he plays upright which will eliminate his talent in the NFL. So yes, while talent is important so is technique. With out technique all that talent goes to waste.

let the hand holding begin.. good post.

[CRA]

Except it isn't about strength, or technique. It's about a talented young defensive tackle prospect being able to come in and perform immediately-which we see here to be true. It also doesn't bode well for the notion that our mid round picks from last year will have some sort of magical epiphany and become great players.

I assumed that the average Huddler would be able to look at this list and know which players had success and which did not, but it's evident some people have to have their hand held every step of the way.

most rookie DTs aren't ready to contribute right away...especially raw ones who didn't dominate like a Suh in college.

There is a reason you included DEs in such in your list. B/c DEs have shown they can perform certain duties (like pass rushing) very quickly.

You have posted nothing showing that raw DTs with talent who didn't dominate in college come into the NFL and perform immediately.

[Cat'sGrowl]

Almost all DT's in the NFL are strong and have loads of talent, yes their is a gap in talent between the best and the worst. However a major ingredient in a DT or DE being successful against the run and the pass in the NFL is technique.

You can have all the talent in the world, but if your technique is pooty then your going to get pushed around by NFL Offensive linemen. Completely ruling out technique is well not very bright. If you look at the DT's you posted, they have talent, but they also play with excellent technique.

Technique is something that Brockers struggles with when rushing the QB a lot and occasionally when defending the run. Not saying that the coaching staff couldn't improve him in that area, but he plays upright which will eliminate his talent in the NFL. So yes, while talent is important so is technique. With out technique all that talent goes to waste.

Well for starters, you're assuming I'm completely on board the Brockers bandwagon. I partially am, but there are other DL in this class I'm looking at, as well.

Secondly, if the coaching staff disagrees with you, then I will take their word over yours, obviously.

Thirdly, part of Brockers' allure is how talented he's been when you include how unrefined he is, and the promise of astronomical growth, including the ability to be molded into whatever he needs to be to fit the system he's in, due to his youth. Obviously, you don't draft players exclusively on the idea that they contribute year one. The point of this thread was simply to show people that there isn't necessarily some 4 year incubation period for DT's, and anyone who believes there is, has deluded themselves. That said, potential plays a huge part in drafting, and people who want us to draft exclusively on the question of "Will this player be dominant year one?" don't have a firm understanding on the point of the draft.

Now, what separates Brockers from other young DT's (like oh say, Sione Fua) is his natural talent and ability. That is the distinguishing factor. If the FO feels he has the ability to overcome those deficiencies early on, then he'd be an even better pick. Fua, and to a slightly lesser extent Mclain, don't have that natural ability, and their ceiling appears to be too low to warrant giving any considerable effort developing. Why waste the time when you can begin to develop someone who can become dominant? The defensive line is too important to invest time developing average players. It's a portion of your team that you want to be as elite as possible. It was the biggest weakness on our team last year, and it should be one of the strongest.