Williams flat out doesn't fit

[PantherKyle]

Deangelo is underrated by Panther fans. While Stewart is better by a margin, I feel many teams would love to have a shifty back like DeAngelo. He works well for what we do, as he only got 46% of the carries last year, with many having both RB's in the game and using Stewart as a fake option.

[rodeo]

It doesn't matter how good Williams is, because we have no options. We are not loaded at RB, contrary to the consensus.

Trade Williams, and what do we do when Stewart gets hurt, which he often does? We suddenly go from potential best backfield in the league, to nothing.

[iamhubby1]

Stewy gets the quick hitter, and with luck is into the second level. This works well for him, and us.

DWill is a shifty kinda guy, and with luck can go yard in a heartbeat. This works well for him, and us.

Two different running styles are hard to argue.

That said. All we ran were semi-draws, misdirection, try and fool em kinda stuff. Hard to even know what is supposed to actually happen during some of these plays? Without the threat of any inside runs, or quick hitters for that matter, the D-line just went into attack mode. I would imagine running behind that play calling would have been difficult for any back.

I am just hopeful that the Offensive plan is beyond my comprehnsion. Cuz I am one confused guy right now.

[MHS831]

We are building through the draft and supplementing with free agency. Are we hitting home runs every time? Of course not. Have we had some picks that have sucked? Absolutely. But who hits on everyone really. You pick a minimum of 7 guys every year but how many starters or even depth players do you think you are going to get? 2 or 3 at best.

With 22 starters on the team we have replaced 12 of those with guys who currently start this year and were drafted since 2007. When you combine that with trades and free agent moves like Shockey, Olsen, Tolbert, Murphy, Edwards 1 and 2, Nakamura, Medlock, and undrafted free agents like Bell, we have largely reshaped our roster for the better following Hurney's strategy. Truth is that the biggest thing that set us back was gutting the roster in 2010 in preparation for the phantom long-term lockout. Hurney has done a pretty good restocking the cupboard which was bare.

No, we are not hitting a home run every time. In the first three rounds since 2008, who have we drafted?

2009: Everette Brown, Sherrod Martin, Corvey Irvin (0-3--a K, a sacrifice bunt, and a K)

2010: Jimmy Clausen, Brandon Lafell, Armanti Edwards (1-3, a single) Lafell is a third WR on most teams

2011: Cam Newton, Terrell McClain, Sione Fua (1-3, a homer, a K and a pop up)

2 for 9--one home run and 1 single. That is not building through the draft. Sure as hell is not hitting a home run every time. That means the top of the lineup is hitting .222. How the heck is that building through the draft?

I am not talking about the entire draft--I am talking about the first three rounds of each draft. We are not hitting home runs, you are right about that.

Do you want an example of building through the draft? Go back to the building that made us a Super Bowl team--can you see the difference?

2001: Dan Morgan, Kriis Jenkins, Steve Smith (3-3; 2 home runs--if Morgan stays healthy, 3 homers)

2002: Julius Peppers, DeShaun Foster, Will Witherspoon (3-3 with 2 home runs--Foster played and had moments--like Lafell so far)

2003: Jordan Gross (safe pick but solid), Bruce Neslon, Mike Siedman (1 for 3, 1 home run)

7 for 9 with 5 home runs. That is building through the draft.

You mention :Hurney's Plan" and talk about all the trades and free agent signings to defend the comment "What part of building through the draft do you not understand?"

I should ask you the same question.

[MemphisGambler]

Stewy gets the quick hitter, and with luck is into the second level. This works well for him, and us.

DWill is a shifty kinda guy, and with luck can go yard in a heartbeat. This works well for him, and us.

Two different running styles are hard to argue.

That said. All we ran were semi-draws, misdirection, try and fool em kinda stuff. Hard to even know what is supposed to actually happen during some of these plays? Without the threat of any inside runs, or quick hitters for that matter, the D-line just went into attack mode. I would imagine running behind that play calling would have been difficult for any back.

I am just hopeful that the Offensive plan is beyond my comprehnsion. Cuz I am one confused guy right now.

I agree.

[CRA]

Based on last year, I assume we are prohibitive favorites to whip the Saints**. We should have invested more in the OL to compliment the RB investment to keep our defense off the field (since our D needs a lot of help) and protect Cam. If we can't afford both, then Hurney never should have invested in Williams and Stewart both if we want immediate results. The Skins sample size is one game and they surprised the hell out of the Saints** like Tampa surprised the Panthers. Who knows. I am not opposed to revamping our front office by the way. Maybe JR should spend some $ and sign a top notch GM and can Hurney. Maybe we should have signed a free agent TE instead of Tolbert.

We have the potential to....

I agree we should of invested more in the OL if our goal is to do what Chud was doing. Our OL is meant to run block and hold only a reasonable amount for pass protection. Cutler's OL wasn't great in Chicago.....but also Martz put them in horrible scenarios that played into their weaknesses. Chud pulled a Martz against Tampa.

Regardless, OL will look better when Stewart is back....if Chud is running from the shotgun all game. Stewart helps alter what the DL does more so than Williams in those looks.

But I feel strongly Hurney is building a roster to do X in many aspects.... and Chud isn't wanting to do X. Chud needs a pass blocking OL, we need a more well rounded TE, based on what he is trying to do.

[Guest Bwood]

Stop bumping this shitty thread.

[CRA]

Deangelo is underrated by Panther fans. While Stewart is better by a margin, I feel many teams would love to have a shifty back like DeAngelo. He works well for what we do, as he only got 46% of the carries last year, with many having both RB's in the game and using Stewart as a fake option.

We ran RBs at historical franchise lows last year....Williams actual snap % of offensive plays was lower than your percentage looks on face value.

[Marguide]

We ran RBs at historical franchise lows last year....Williams actual snap % of offensive plays was lower than your percentage looks on face value.

I think Williams touched the ball maybe 6 times on Sunday. If Chud doesn't have a plan to use him more than that, we might as well move on.

[rayzor]

just wondering how anyone really "knows" that williams doesn't fit? does anyone in here really know the playbook or the system?

fit the system to the players....that's what i've heard that chud is doing. if that is the case, how can williams not fit a system that is built to include his strengths?

this isn't any typical offense here. this isn't one simply explained or understood. lack of use to according to some poster's standard doesn't mean he doesn't fit or any other nonsense like that.

this has been a great exercise in talking out of the ass.

[CRA]

just wondering how anyone really "knows" that williams doesn't fit? does anyone in here really know the playbook or the system?

fit the system to the players....that's what i've heard that chud is doing. if that is the case, how can williams not fit a system that is built to include his strengths?

this isn't any typical offense here. this isn't one simply explained or understood. lack of use to according to some poster's standard doesn't mean he doesn't fit or any other nonsense like that.

this has been a great exercise in talking out of the ass.

Do you not watch Carolina? It is pretty obvious what some players do well and don't in addition....Is pass blocking, read plays, running between the tackles, make a player miss the and then getting yards, Rex etc strengths of Williams? Or is he a traditional RB you line up and let him bounce to the outside and let him pick an open running lane to hit?

You can't fit a system to all players. Chud has tweaked his system to revolve around certain players.

The core of what Chud wants to do doesn't fit Williams...that is why despite his huge extension he wasn't second fiddle last year in terms of being on the field. Williams doesn't fit what the primary RB needs to do....which is why he wasn't the primary RB last year in it and attempting to have him be it Sunday was part of the reason the offense wasn't moving.

[panthers55]

It doesn't matter how good Williams is, because we have no options. We are not loaded at RB, contrary to the consensus.

Trade Williams, and what do we do when Stewart gets hurt, which he often does? We suddenly go from potential best backfield in the league, to nothing.

I was listening to Ladanian Thomlinson on NFL Sirius yesterday and he was talking about running backs in the NFL. He mentioned that you need 2 good backs on a team these days not one good back and a journeymen. He said that competition pushed everyone and is needed. He said he was better because he had a very good back in Michael Turner behind him who pushed him and forced him to perform to avoid losing carries to Turner. He also mentioned that you need 2 backs and that a punishing runner who runs between the tackles and gets hit multiple times on a run can't carry the ball 30 times a game. He said that every time the runner makes contact he is getting hit and beaten up as well. If a back bounces off 3 guys and then gets tackled, it is the same as a guy who run the ball 4 times and gets tackled once each time. He said you need different kinds of backs in this league and that not everyone should be a power back or a guy who runs through people. You needed change of pace guys and quick guys as well as the pounder. One wasn't better than the other, they worked together.

He wasn't actually talking about the Panthers when he said this but it surely seems to apply to our situation here.

[panthers55]

No, we are not hitting a home run every time. In the first three rounds since 2008, who have we drafted?

2009: Everette Brown, Sherrod Martin, Corvey Irvin (0-3--a K, a sacrifice bunt, and a K)

2010: Jimmy Clausen, Brandon Lafell, Armanti Edwards (1-3, a single) Lafell is a third WR on most teams

2011: Cam Newton, Terrell McClain, Sione Fua (1-3, a homer, a K and a pop up)

2 for 9--one home run and 1 single. That is not building through the draft. Sure as hell is not hitting a home run every time. That means the top of the lineup is hitting .222. How the heck is that building through the draft?

I am not talking about the entire draft--I am talking about the first three rounds of each draft. We are not hitting home runs, you are right about that.

Do you want an example of building through the draft? Go back to the building that made us a Super Bowl team--can you see the difference?

2001: Dan Morgan, Kriis Jenkins, Steve Smith (3-3; 2 home runs--if Morgan stays healthy, 3 homers)

2002: Julius Peppers, DeShaun Foster, Will Witherspoon (3-3 with 2 home runs--Foster played and had moments--like Lafell so far)

2003: Jordan Gross (safe pick but solid), Bruce Neslon, Mike Siedman (1 for 3, 1 home run)

7 for 9 with 5 home runs. That is building through the draft.

You mention :Hurney's Plan" and talk about all the trades and free agent signings to defend the comment "What part of building through the draft do you not understand?"

I should ask you the same question.

What you fail to mention is that starters can be found other places than in the first 3 rounds and that as long as you find 3 or 4 starters each year it doesn't matter where they come from. Plus you mention the draft only and I mentioned the draft, trades which involve draft picks and free agent pick ups.

No one will argue that 2009 was a bad draft. It happens. But we still have a starter who played pretty well last week in Munnerlyn who was a seventh rounder. Doesn't matter if he was a first rounder or seventh as long as he starts the result is the same.

In 2010 we picked up LaFell, Hardy, and Gettis (who I still think is a player when healthy), that is 2 starters and a contributor which isn't bad when you don't have a first round pick. Given we were in dump mode and tanked the team we didn't pick up free agent folks. Thank Richardson for that, not Hurney.

Finally in 2011 we got back on track, we hit the lottery with Newton and brought in Edwards, Shockey, Olsen, Bell, Hangartner, Senn among many others. That was 6 starters and a contributor at least. I didn't mention Mare, LOL.

Again our philosophy isn't just to build through the draft, it is build through the draft and supplement it with free agents and trades which are reasonable guys. For example getting rid of McClain wasn't an admission that he was a failure, it was an admission that he wasn't progressing as fast as we had hoped and needed to upgrade the position which we did with Edwards from Buffalo. We could have kept him but Rivera and Hurney saw a chance to upgrade and jumped on it.

Guys like Olsen and Murphy are really part of the draft class since they were acquired with future draft picks. Olsen cost us a third this year and Murphy a seventh next.

[CRA]

I was listening to Ladanian Thomlinson on NFL Sirius yesterday and he was talking about running backs in the NFL. He mentioned that you need 2 good backs on a team these days not one good back and a journeymen. He said that competition pushed everyone and is needed. He said he was better because he had a very good back in Michael Turner behind him who pushed him and forced him to perform to avoid losing carries to Turner. He also mentioned that you need 2 backs and that a punishing runner who runs between the tackles and gets hit multiple times on a run can't carry the ball 30 times a game. He said that every time the runner makes contact he is getting hit and beaten up as well. If a back bounces off 3 guys and then gets tackled, it is the same as a guy who run the ball 4 times and gets tackled once each time. He said you need different kinds of backs in this league and that not everyone should be a power back or a guy who runs through people. You needed change of pace guys and quick guys as well as the pounder. One wasn't better than the other, they worked together.

He wasn't actually talking about the Panthers when he said this but it surely seems to apply to our situation here.

No one on this board has disagreed with that. RB by committee is how you run in today's NFL....

Paying 2 first rounders featured RB money isn't a RB by committee.....it is over investing.

Doubt LT would say what we are doing is how you build a RB committee