WCO, Coryell, E-P....

[Cyberjag]

Shula-Newton?

I've been reading all season about how Shula has tailored our offense specifically to Cam's strengths.  Like the WCO and Coryell systems, it's based on a power running game.  Like Coryell, we use that to set up the deep pass.  Like E-P, we have many potential runs off the same look.  And there's a big element of the zone read in play as well.

I'm just tossing this out there for conversation, and think it's interesting to consider.  If we have sustained success on offense for many seasons to come running this system, you know that other OCs in the league will break it down and imitate it.  Netwon's success is surely going to inspire other kids to play QB when they maybe pass the eye test for LB or DE.  He's the first like him, but won't be the last.  And right now, you could even argue that a QB like EJ Manuel or even (*shudder*) Colin Kaepernick could be effective in this system.  Frankly, I think it's one that could make The Golden Calf of Bristol look like an NFL QB.

If that happens, the sustained success and imitator that is, do you think this offense will take on an identity of it's own like E-P or Coryell?  Will future football fans talk about how their team is going to change from a WCO to a Shula?  

Could that happen?  Why or why not?

[London Loves Luke]

I mean you're more than welcome to try it if you find a 6'5" 250lb laser-arm QB who can run a 4.6sec 40 to run it with. Otherwise be prepared to power run your qb in an all body cast because he's not getting through the season without breaking a few bones.

[d-dave]

Man, future talk, how easy to predict! =P

It depends on how well it translates to some of those other players AND if we win championships.  For the WCO, the reason it was successful was that it was extremely difficult to defend against and the 49ers won many super bowls with it.  So long as you had a smart QB who could read a defense, he could make these 5 yard throws all day and allow the WRs to get YAC.  It still works in variation today.

Now will the Shula-Cam offense become a thing?  That I'm not sure of because how many people will want an offense that grinds it out versus the high flying 400 yards passing offenses that fans seem to love?  I swear, it does seem like fans would be fine losing so long as they won in the fantasy game (that's a whole different issue).  

We have to keep winning, consistently, and other teams have to be able to copy it and have success.  Cam has gotten really good at the reading/manipulating/throwing part of the whole QB thing where guys like Kaep and GCoB we never very good at that.  You'd still have to have the right QB and the right players to make it work.

[CarolinaXblue]

I think this is the exact reason Chip Kelly's Offense isn't working. Minus the fact he got rid of every bright spot on his offense.

But in my opinion, it was to get Mariota so he could run that style of offense. You can't have someone 6 years removed from a college style offense and try to bring them back to one, when from the start even in college they were in a spread offense. Also, even if you have a quarterback right out of college who can run that kind of offense, he has to develop into a pocket passer if he's not already because no quarterback is going to run in this league for 10 years without lots of injury.

[Razeyfingers]

6 minutes ago, CarolinaXblue said:

I think this is the exact reason Chip Kelly's Offense isn't working. Minus the fact he got rid of every bright spot on his offense.

But in my opinion, it was to get Mariota so he could run that style of offense. You can't have someone 6 years removed from a college style offense and try to bring them back to one, when from the start even in college they were in a spread offense. Also, even if you have a quarterback right out of college who can run that kind of offense, he has to develop into a pocket passer if he's not already because no quarterback is going to run in this league for 10 years without lots of injury.

Kelly's offense doesnt work for a variety of reasons. This has nothing to do with it, remember that Nick Foles was lighting people up in that system. Theres too few plays in their playbook and they dont do enough to set up the defenses theyre going against. They take away talent from their roster and now theyre puzzled.

 

That system is reckless, injury prone and predictable. In fact, ours is almost the vice versa of it.

[h0llywood]

I'm typing in bed so I'm gking off memory here but I do believe that EP was originally a run based variation of WCO until Charlie Weis evolved it to what the Patriots are doing today. 

 

Give me the QB who can make the middle and deep throws over the dinky dunks offense QB that a 50 year old Jimmy Clausen can throw.

[TheNewStandard]

Can has finally become a true dual threat QB. In fact, he is the only pocket/power rushing QB in the game. 

Can he throw for 300+ yards every game? Not with our WR corp...no. That's not his fault, but once LB gets back and Funchess develops, he will have that opportunity so he can age-well and so that we won't have to rely on his running capabilities to get first-downs.

all of this is predicated upon a rush-first offense and a dynamo defense that keeps our offense on the field and to get to the level this team is currently operating, having elite-defensive and offensive weapons have to be on the field making plays.

there isn't another team in the league besides maybe Seattle that could mimic what the Panthers do and their version is not nearly as effective as our Panthers.

i don't see another team with the personnel needed to play this way and I doubt any team will be able to do this anytime soon...copy-cat or not (pun intended.)

[panthers55]

I don't think this offense is unique enough to warrant its own recognition anymore than what Brady does in New England.  With offenses becoming amalgamations of different systems it is likely even inaccurate to call them a WCO or a Coryell system given most teams use elements of several systems. So no I don't think that there will be the Shula. Still I think that more OCs may start to try and maximize their system to fit their personnel instead of trying to fit their personnel into their system.  But that requires teams to be consistent with their coordinators and stick with guys instead of dumping them  for the new best thing. I was watching the game last night and was amazed at how many different coaches, GMs, and changes they have had in Cleveland over the past 7 years. No wonder they suck every year. No continuity at all.

[0115]

21 minutes ago, TheNewStandard said:

Can has finally become a true dual threat QB. In fact, he is the only pocket/power rushing QB in the game. 

Can he throw for 300+ yards every game? Not with our WR corp...no. That's not his fault, but once LB gets back and Funchess develops, he will have that opportunity so he can age-well and so that we won't have to rely on his running capabilities to get first-downs.

all of this is predicated upon a rush-first offense and a dynamo defense that keeps our offense on the field and to get to the level this team is currently operating, having elite-defensive and offensive weapons have to be on the field making plays.

there isn't another team in the league besides maybe Seattle that could mimic what the Panthers do and their version is not nearly as effective as our Panthers.

i don't see another team with the personnel needed to play this way and I doubt any team will be able to do this anytime soon...copy-cat or not (pun intended.)

N=/=M

[panthers55]

20 minutes ago, h0llywood said:

I'm typing in bed so I'm gking off memory here but I do believe that EP was originally a run based variation of WCO until Charlie Weis evolved it to what the Patriots are doing today. 

 

Give me the QB who can make the middle and deep throws over the dinky dunks offense QB that a 50 year old Jimmy Clausen can throw.

The EP is not a run based version of the WCO offense. It differs both in philosophy and play calling and is rather robust including most offenses not classified as a WCO or Coryell system. 

And Weiss helped develop the NE version of the EP but it existed before him and they are not synonymous. If you look at New England they run different schemes based on their personnel more so than a dedication to one system or another. 

[Swaggasaurus]

What we are designing is a basketball on grass offense. Cam lobbing the ball up to 6-4+ targets once we get KB back. In the red zone and short yardage, Compare Cam's designed runs to Lebron with an isolation play with the shot clock under 5 seconds.

[Mage]

3 hours ago, Cyberjag said:

And right now, you could even argue that a QB like EJ Manuel or even (*shudder*) Colin Kaepernick could be effective in this system.  

The system only works because Cam is actually a good passer.  It doesn't matter how athletic you are, you still have to be able to pass.

Manuel has no accuracy and Kaepernick, mentally, just isn't there in regards to his Football IQ.

[CarolinaXblue]

46 minutes ago, Razeyfingers said:

Kelly's offense doesnt work for a variety of reasons. This has nothing to do with it, remember that Nick Foles was lighting people up in that system. Theres too few plays in their playbook and they dont do enough to set up the defenses theyre going against. They take away talent from their roster and now theyre puzzled.

 

That system is reckless, injury prone and predictable. In fact, ours is almost the vice versa of it.

I'll agree to disagree. Not with all of it, just some of it.

[d-dave]

55 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

I don't think this offense is unique enough to warrant its own recognition anymore than what Brady does in New England.  With offenses becoming amalgamations of different systems it is likely even inaccurate to call them a WCO or a Coryell system given most teams use elements of several systems. So no I don't think that there will be the Shula. Still I think that more OCs may start to try and maximize their system to fit their personnel instead of trying to fit their personnel into their system.  But that requires teams to be consistent with their coordinators and stick with guys instead of dumping them  for the new best thing. I was watching the game last night and was amazed at how many different coaches, GMs, and changes they have had in Cleveland over the past 7 years. No wonder they suck every year. No continuity at all.

I think is a better summation.  The NFL is less system based and more personnel based.  Folks should play to their player's strengths to get the most out of it.  Some teams are able to slot guys into a system because they do the system's jobs well.