Death of a Gettleman: JR is at best Carolina's Tragic Hero

[ickmule]

1 minute ago, uncfan888 said:

Frash wrote a damn thesis. Hurney fans probably can't understand the big words you used anyways 

Damn I spit out my coffee reading that. :) 

[frash.exe]

30 minutes ago, E CaT PanTHer 2 said:

although I don't agree with everything you said, you are an amazing writer

just giving credit where credits due

i've been watching way too much crashcourse and regular car reviews

[Seltzer]

19 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

This isn't just directed at you frash, as you are one of my favorite posters, but I just don't understand all of this hero worship for a guy that still couldn't put together consecutive winning seasons, IN LARGE PART, due to his own ego and stubbornness.  Again, he made some solid picks, he made some horrible ones, all while he scorched, nuked, and destroyed multiple legacies and professional relationships along the way.  I just don't see how that is translating to "Gettleman: The Savior of Carolina."  Results were the same with him as they were with Hurney, minus the contract extensions...  But, that was the only difference between them - their respective tenures are marked by polar opposite approaches to retaining players and negotiating contracts.  One was a pushover with an open wallet, the other was a hardass, uber-penny-pincher to the extreme.

And again, the two (non-consecutive) winning seasons he had were with a core that Hurney built, LOL.  Cam, Luke, TD, Olsen, and others...  I get that people are unhappy with the move, but all of these dramatics in mourning are just really over the top, imo.

 

Fantastic post...  like most fans, I don't understand the move to get rid of Gettleman and approved his performance overall.  That being said, ultimately we as fans aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, and we don't own the team.  I don't believe Richardson deserves a free pass for all the decisions he's made (especially not to at least make a public announcement if not answering media questions).  However, the Carolinas would not have a team without his vision.  Charlotte (and the Carolinas) was certainly not the market in 1993 it is now.  The PSL innovation helped Richardson sell the NFL on a team when Charlotte was still considerably smaller than a lot of the markets being looked at for expansion.  The idea that Richardson is just a senile old man with is trying to wreck the franchise is misguided and disrespectful.  I will forever be grateful for him helping to bring an NFL franchise to Carolina.  Whether or not you agree with the decision to fire Gettleman, Richardson wants to win and win now.  To say that Richardson doesn't value loyalty to the league and from his employees, and wants to promote a certain culture, also isn't true, but none of that diminishes his desire to win.  Gettleman was allowed to make a lot of decisions (Gross, Smitty, Norman) without Richardson butting in.  I personally believe Gettleman being fired went deeper than player contract negotiation.  What that reason is will probably never be known, and it's pointless to spend more time of in in my opinion.

As for the Hurney vs. Gettleman discussion, it is a lot closer than some people think when you look at it objectively.  You certainly cannot definitely say Gettleman was better at the draft or free agency.  Hurney had his misses, but he also drafted a future HoFer in Peppers, and picked 2 more potential ones on his way out with Cam and Luke.  He also was involved with the front office when Smitty was drafted.  He also signed Jake and traded for Olsen, which are in my opinion the best free agent moves in franchise history.  The only player drafted by Gettleman that appears to have HoF potential right now is Kawaan Short.  And the idea that Hurney never found a diamond in the rough is crazy   Norman was a 5th rounder and Munnerlyn a 7th rounder.  I'm not here to say Hurney was perfect, but he was in no way close to being an awful GM.

Likewise, Gettleman had in my opinion a very good tenure here, but the biggest lasting contribution is him cleaning up Hurney's mess with the contracts.  That is 100% on Hurney, and he was rightfully fired b/c of it.  The idea that he couldn't learn from that though is insane.  Imagine if Bill Belichick never got another opportunity after his first failed head coaching job with the Browns or Pete Carroll with the Jets.  I am in no way saying Hurney will be mentioned like that, or that he is the right man for the GM job long-term.  But to say he couldn't be better this time or that he was awful during his first tenure is no true either.  Hurney oversaw a 1-15 team that went to the SB 2 years later.  The franchise was unquestionably in a worse spot then than in 2012.

This hand-wringing really is over-the-top.  The Gettleman news is shocking and disappointing.  Knowing what I know as a fan (which is 99% of what the national media know BTW, regardless of what the hottake specialists claim), it doesn't make sense, especially right before training camp.  But a lot of the ultimate joy & sorrow of being a fan is in the faith this could be a special year.  Otherwise, what's the point?

If someone is so distraught over this and needs to find another team to support, so be it.  It ultimately is just a game anyway.  I am way too invested in the Panthers to walk away and won't.  Richardson has owned a team that has been to 4 NFC Championships & 2 SB's in 21 years.  Those numbers aren't up there with the Patriots or Steelers. but they are better than a lot of the league.  This team is not being run by idiots, and it never has been.

[Seltzer]

11 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Truth is, like most things, somewhere in the muddled middle.

Gettleman was not as great as many people are saying; not was Hurney as bad. People remember the highs and lows of each, but the average is what should count.

That said, in the long run, while they used different approaches to get there, the overall results were pretty similar when you consider everything.

Gettleman was better at finding talent in the middle rounds of the draft, but Hurney's 1st round success is hard to top. Gettleman was far superior at managing the cap, but Hurney was much better about addressing glaring holes on the roster via free agency.

Overall, if you look at the true core of this team, both deserve credit for key pieces. Hurney drafted Cam and Luke, and made the best trade in team history to acquire Greg Olsen. Gettleman drafted Kawann Short and Trai Turner, signed one of the best UDFA's in team history in Andrew Norwell, and we've still yet to see the best of James Bradberry, IMO.

Both deserve criticism (Hurney's cap management, bad draft trades; Gettleman's handling of the OT's in 2014 and Josh Norman last offseason) and praise (both added key pieces to our core) so to act like either was truly horrible or exceptional is just wrong and the result of major generalizations by many fans.

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Good post!

[NanuqoftheNorth]

29 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Truth is, like most things, somewhere in the muddled middle.

Gettleman was not as great as many people are saying; not was Hurney as bad. People remember the highs and lows of each, but the average is what should count.

That said, in the long run, while they used different approaches to get there, the overall results were pretty similar when you consider everything.

Gettleman was better at finding talent in the middle rounds of the draft, but Hurney's 1st round success is hard to top. Gettleman was far superior at managing the cap, but Hurney was much better about addressing glaring holes on the roster via free agency.

Overall, if you look at the true core of this team, both deserve credit for key pieces. Hurney drafted Cam and Luke, and made the best trade in team history to acquire Greg Olsen. Gettleman drafted Kawann Short and Trai Turner, signed one of the best UDFA's in team history in Andrew Norwell, and we've still yet to see the best of James Bradberry, IMO.

Both deserve criticism (Hurney's cap management, bad draft trades; Gettleman's handling of the OT's in 2014 and Josh Norman last offseason) and praise (both added key pieces to our core) so to act like either was truly horrible or exceptional is just wrong and the result of major generalizations by many fans.

Sent using the amazing CarolinaHuddle mobile app
 

Gettleman required only 4 years to achieve the same level of success Hurney had 12 years to achieve.  

What makes Dave's accomplishment even more impressive is that he did with one hand tied behind his back thanks to being strapped for cash due to Hurney behaving like Santa Claus when it came to contract negotiations.  

Gettleman also had to overcome an environment where certain players were coddled and doted on by ownership, undermining Dave's ability to transition the franchise from a losing culture to a winning one.

[uncfan888]

5 minutes ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

Gettleman required only 4 years to achieve the same level of success Hurney had 12 years to achieve.  

What makes Dave's accomplishment even more impressive is that he did with one hand tied behind his back thanks to being strapped for cash due to Hurney behaving like Santa Claus when it came to contract negotiations.  

Gettleman also had to overcome an environment where certain players were coddled and doted on by ownership, undermining Dave's ability to transition the franchise from a losing culture to a winning one.

And unfortunately ownership couldn't handle running the team as a business instead of a family so now we're back to this

[Jmac]

First round success isn't that hard to achieve. When your selecting from a pool of the top 15 to 20 players, as the Panthers always have in those 6-10/7-9 win years. Handling the 2nd round on is when it takes talent to find talent.


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[The Huddler]

fugjr.exe

[Saca312]

Good stuff. Pretty much sums everything up.

EDIT: I just realized your user is Frash.exe, not Flash.exe.

Wtf

[Seltzer]

In the end we are still a very mediocre franchise with a stubborn owner and nothing will chance until that changes. At least with Gettleman we had hope for the future because he had us moving in the right direction as a whole. With Hurney I'm scared to death of any decision he makes. 

Mediocre compared to who? The Patriots? Who isn't...

The Panthers have been to 4 NFC Championships and 2 Super Bowls in 21 years. Those aren't bad, or even mediocre numbers compared to other teams. Only the Seahawks, Packers, Giants and Eagles have had more postseason wins in the NFC during this time. We've been to more NFC Championships than any other NFC South team and have had more NFC South titles. The overall number of playoff appearances has been mediocre, but more often than not we have had good runs when we have made it.

There will always be something missing from this franchise until we get a Lombardi, but the idea that Panther fans have spent 20+ years with nothing to be proud of is simply not true. There are 32 teams, and 31 of them are ultimately disappointed every year.

We are not the Patriots, but it really does bother me that it seems so many fans are jumping on this idea that we have been/are a dysfunctional franchise being led by morons.

We were in an effing Super Bowl less than 18 months ago!! What is Hurney going to do... release Cam, Luke, Olsen, Short, Trai, Norwell, McCaffrey, etc. tomorrow?? Have some pride or at least some objectivity please!!

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[The Huddler]

5 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Good stuff. Pretty much sums everything up.

EDIT: I just realized your user is Frash.exe, not Flash.exe.

Wtf

[frash.exe]

46 minutes ago, The Lobo said:

Pie for the large wall of text and Vsauce 

you better buy that goddamned curiosity box bitch

[Seltzer]

First round success isn't that hard to achieve. When your selecting from a pool of the top 15 to 20 players, as the Panthers always have in those 6-10/7-9 win years. Handling the 2nd round on is when it takes talent to find talent.


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Really??!! Surely you know there are a lot of 1st round busts... you are right about the need to hit in the 2nd round, something Gettleman did better than Hurney in a small sample size. That being said, Hurney's first rounders were better than Gettleman's by any comparison. If anything, Gettleman's best picks may have been his 2nd rounders (Short, Trai, Bradberry). As far as the diamonds in the rough, eh... Gettleman had Norwell, but Hurney had Norman, Munnerlyn, and Hardy. Gettleman might have had more in a longer time period, but to me there's no clear advantage there. Gettleman did decent in free agency, especially given what he had to spend. Regardless, Hurney had the best 2 moves with Delhomme and Olsen, hands down.

I am not here to say Gettleman wasn't good. I don't agree with his firing from what I know as a fan. He did a good job, especially in terms of cleaning up Hurney's cap mess. I don't objectively believe he was any better at drafting or free agency. I would argue that with anyone.

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[ickmule]

14 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

 

 

Mediocre compared to who? The Patriots? Who isn't...

The Panthers have been to 4 NFC Championships and 2 Super Bowls in 21 years. Those aren't bad, or even mediocre numbers compared to other teams. Only the Seahawks, Packers, Giants and Eagles have had more postseason wins in the NFC during this time. We've been to more NFC Championships than any other NFC South team and have had more NFC South titles. The overall number of playoff appearances has been mediocre, but more often than not we have had good runs when we have made it.

There will always be something missing from this franchise until we get a Lombardi, but the idea that Panther fans have spent 20+ years with nothing to be proud of is simply not true. There are 32 teams, and 31 of them are ultimately disappointed every year.

We are not the Patriots, but it really does bother me that it seems so many fans are jumping on this idea that we have been/are a dysfunctional franchise being led by morons.

We were in an effing Super Bowl less than 18 months ago!! What is Hurney going to do... release Cam, Luke, Olsen, Short, Trai, Norwell, McCaffrey, etc. tomorrow?? Have some pride or at least some objectivity please!!

Sent using the amazing CarolinaHuddle mobile app
 

 

 

Mediocre man, look at the overall record and lack of back to back winning seasons. All of that says mediocre.  We have been the laughing stock of the NFL several times since 1995.