Offseason Approaches

[Mr. Scot]

Should add this...

Ron being a "take it easy" guy isn't that big a deal to me, though it could be argued that it might benefit him to be at least a little tougher.

You can win with that approach. Other coaches have.

A bigger issue with Ron is his wish to see veteran players leave the game "on their own terms".

I get the desire, and it's noble and honorable (Rivera is a good man)  but the number football careers that end the way the player wants them to end is really small. And sometimes trying to make something  that doesn't happen all that often happen for certain guys winds up not being in the best interest of the team as a whole.

As harsh and heartless as it might sound, the team's best interest should always come first.

[BrianS]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Should add this...

Ron being a "take it easy" guy isn't that big a deal to me, though it could be argued that it might benefit him to be at least a little tougher.

You can win with that approach. Other coaches have.

A bigger issue with Ron is his wish to see veteran players leave the game "on their own terms".

I get the desire, and it's noble and honorable (Rivera is a good man)  but the number football careers that end the way the player wants them to end is really small. And sometimes trying to make something  that doesn't happen all that often happen for certain guys winds up not being in the best interest of the team as a whole.

As harsh and heartless as it might sound, the team's best interest should always come first.

See, I don't completely agree.  That's not entirely on Ron's shoulders, that's at least partially on the GM.  Early returns say that Hurney 2.0 is doing better.  I still don't like how we've handled Torrey, but old Hurney would have handed TD another contract.  Heck, it's not outside the realm of possibility that you could say he SHOULD have.

I do agree that we need to be more objective and analytical about keeping players, especially ones nearing the end of their career.  There isn't always a cut and dried answer (see Brady, Tom) but typically yea, we need to be very skeptical of a players ability to continue as they get older.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, BrianS said:

See, I don't completely agree.  That's not entirely on Ron's shoulders, that's at least partially on the GM.  Early returns say that Hurney 2.0 is doing better.  I still don't like how we've handled Torrey, but old Hurney would have handed TD another contract.  Heck, it's not outside the realm of possibility that you could say he SHOULD have.

I do agree that we need to be more objective and analytical about keeping players, especially ones nearing the end of their career.  There isn't always a cut and dried answer (see Brady, Tom) but typically yea, we need to be very skeptical of a players ability to continue as they get older.

From what I know, I think Hurney is just as much a "happy ending" guy as Rivera. Thomas Davis is an argument against, but Torrey Smith, Ryan Kalil, arguably Greg Olsen and Graham Gano point to the flipside.

For me though, the wild card isn't so much Marty Hurney as it is David Tepper.

[JARROD]

I’m in the belief that the teams that go soft in the off season cause more injuries.

Too soft, notice a lot of ACL, MCL, twisted ankles.

the reason I believe is you when you practice not to get hurt, you cause it.

when players go to win, give it all, they usually avoid injuries,..

as far as when a team peaks, of course you will want them peaking in the playoffs, not go 6-1 and then 1-8,..

[thennek]

 I know a guy that played in the NFL for 14 years in the 80s and into the 90’s. He hated training camp...I don’t think a NFL veteran needs to be treated like a rookie recruit in Boot Camp. He would definitely say vet days are a good thing and the “old boot camp” days  were not. 

[Waldo]

I would go with a mix. Be smart and use the tools to help you manage working a player but not running them into the ground. Figure out what a player needs and get them the extra play or rest to make the entire NFL year, postseason included. The weather is a good addition to the tough side, I'm only concerned about practicing in ballrooms (which is over!) and bad turf from the weather. 

Our team has too much of 'just be yourself' when I think it should be 'take care of business first and then be yourself'. I'm know the players are happy with Ron's approach but it sucks! The approach of letting players leave on their terms is garbage and will go down as his biggest negative. Being hands on in the right way and then letting your subordinates operate within that guidance is a hard skill to master and Ron is way too loose. The fact that this philosophy spills over into personal decisions is part of the foundation for a good bit of our teams negatives. 

[Mr. Scot]

34 minutes ago, JARROD said:

I’m in the belief that the teams that go soft in the off season cause more injuries.

Too soft, notice a lot of ACL, MCL, twisted ankles.

the reason I believe is you when you practice not to get hurt, you cause it.

when players go to win, give it all, they usually avoid injuries,..

as far as when a team peaks, of course you will want them peaking in the playoffs, not go 6-1 and then 1-8,..

A lot of people have theorized that injuries have actually gotten worse since the implementation of the lighter / easier practice rules that the Players Association fought for in the last CBA.

I don't know if there's been any statistical analysis done to back that up or refute it. If I'm just going by my own sense of things, I feel like it's true, but you can't count on that being a reliable indicator.

[thefuzz]

Not sure I have enough time to type this out with my full thoughts, but will circle back when I can.

 

IMO on a veteran team, and we certainly are one of those, especially last season....a softer approach is likely best.  We don't tend to have too many head cases here, and most of these guys really do seem to play for Rivera....and play hard for him.  I'm not a fan of his blind loyalty to older players.  I'm not a fan of his insistence on playing an old brand of football....but it can work....and has somewhat since he's been here.

 

Here's where I think that the softer approach can be a toxic one....when you pair him with a "players GM". 

 

I feel that Marty and Ron think that they are each on equal footing, and IMO that is a bad recipe for producing the best food.  Both Marty and Ron like the idea of players leaving on their own terms.  They both favor harmony, family, and tradition over winning.  One paired with the other is probably fine, when you pair two of the "soft approach" guys together.....well, you can go back and look at the results yourself.

[Mr. Scot]

3 hours ago, thennek said:

 I know a guy that played in the NFL for 14 years in the 80s and into the 90’s. He hated training camp...I don’t think a NFL veteran needs to be treated like a rookie recruit in Boot Camp. He would definitely say vet days are a good thing and the “old boot camp” days  were not. 

I've certainly never played in the NFL, but in my football days I also hated practice.

Looking back though, I also have to acknowledge that if I had put in more effort during practice, I probably would have been a better player.

[Navy_football]

4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

Hot Dam! Mr. Scot is back. All is well again in Panther Land!!

[PurityControl]

Is there even a option in this era of football? Isn't it pretty much like NASCAR now, its a even playing field when it comes to camp, practice etc. 

one set of rules for all.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, PurityControl said:

Is there even a option in this era of football? Isn't it pretty much like NASCAR now, its a even playing field when it comes to camp, practice etc. 

one set of rules for all.

The rules mandated by the latest CBA really do make it tougher to be a hard-ass coach.

That said, new CBA negotiations are ongoing. I don't really expect the players to accept any alternative options on this front, but you never know.

Side Note: Our new owner, the guy who is reported to have more than once been willing to back out of even purchasing the team rather than up his price, is expected to play a major role in those negotiations.

That could get... interesting.

[Mr. Scot]

8 hours ago, thefuzz said:

Not sure I have enough time to type this out with my full thoughts, but will circle back when I can.

IMO on a veteran team, and we certainly are one of those, especially last season....a softer approach is likely best.  We don't tend to have too many head cases here, and most of these guys really do seem to play for Rivera....and play hard for him.  I'm not a fan of his blind loyalty to older players.  I'm not a fan of his insistence on playing an old brand of football....but it can work....and has somewhat since he's been here.

Here's where I think that the softer approach can be a toxic one....when you pair him with a "players GM". 

I feel that Marty and Ron think that they are each on equal footing, and IMO that is a bad recipe for producing the best food.  Both Marty and Ron like the idea of players leaving on their own terms.  They both favor harmony, family, and tradition over winning.  One paired with the other is probably fine, when you pair two of the "soft approach" guys together.....well, you can go back and look at the results yourself.

I've said before that I think Hurney and Rivera are a bad combo, arguably worse together than either of them are individually.

More and more these days, that's how I think team braintrusts should be evaluated. In the past it's always been that you analyze the coach for coaching and the GM for roster building, but those things go so hand-in-hand anymore that I think it's wise to take a more "big picture" approach.

Does that mean you automatically fire both if the team goes bad? No, although the general expectation is that's what's gonna happen if the Panthers have a bad season this year.

Generally speaking though, if you determine that one or the other is the weak link and the stronger of the two could work better paired with somebody else, you act appropriately.

[Sean Payton's Vicodin]

Whover sucks ass in camp should work twice as hard as those who know what theyre doing.