clearing up this kyle allen vs cam newton battle

[Cpt slay a ho]

 Cam isn’t about to break the bank come negotiations, as long as we don’t lowball him I feel like he would be happy with that, I doubt he goes home and makes gripes because he’s not getting paid more than *insert overpaid qb*.

kyle Allen play also helps us in negotiating that new contract. 

[Saca312]

10 minutes ago, Hoenheim said:

so If Allen goes 11-0 and Cam goes 0-12 you would pay Cam 30+ Mil and keep him as the starter ?? 

this isn't even a remotely plausible hypothetical in general.

anyways, let me apply this with an analogy of cars. so basically cam's a lambo and he's in the shop. you don't know if you totaled that lambo or not, but you've been rough with it and it got to the point it needed fixing. 

meanwhile at your place you got a new honda accord sitting pretty at home. it works fine. it does its job. but it is no lambo, but it works.

now, if the lambo comes out and it turns out it's as good as totaled, then yes I'll keep the honda accord running because there's no other choice.

but if that lambo comes out and it's working at it's prior state, you bet i'd be driving that accord over that volvo any day of the week. sure, it costs more to maintain that lambo, but its a far superior car compared to the accord.

 

[kungfoodude]

Well this thread already went to poo. 

The Huddle itself is basically the Tinderbox these days. I would have shuttered that place years ago and squashed all the roaches in it. Now even though they try to spray this board, you kill them here but the neighbor is infested with them, so they keep coming back.

[Saca312]

8 minutes ago, Hoenheim said:

thats yet to be proven. What does 100% cam even look like or can he even get to that point??  

he heals up from his lisfranc injury 100% and the coaching staff doesn't rush him back in.

for goodness sakes it's not like he has an achilles. his shoulder's fine given his velocity, all he needs now is the ability to plant his foot and he'll go back to his early MVP-esque 2018 form

[jfra78]

2 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

this isn't even a remotely plausible hypothetical in general.

anyways, let me apply this with an analogy of cars. so basically cam's a lambo and he's in the shop. you don't know if you totaled that lambo or not, but you've been rough with it and it got to the point it needed fixing. 

meanwhile at your place you got an old honda accord sitting pretty at home. it works fine. it does its job. but it is no lambo, but it works.

now, if the lambo comes out and it turns out it's as good as totaled, then yes I'll keep the honda accord running because there's no other choice.

but if that lambo comes out and it's working at it's prior state, you bet i'd be driving that accord over that volvo any day of the week. sure, it costs more to maintain that lambo, but its a far superior car compared to the accord.

 

Can we at least compare Allen to a new Honda Accord?

[CPcavedweller]

1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

since this board has collective amnesia and/or a vitriolic tendency to commit to one side of the "cam newton vs kyle allen" spectrum, let me clear a few things up.

-No. Kyle Allen is not better than a healthy Cam Newton. Stop kidding yourselves. Even with Kyle Allen reaching his best form he won't even touch Cam's peak. Let's just end that ridiculous notion there.

-No. Kyle Allen does not suck. He's a more than capable backup that has starting potential for plenty of other teams. He does a lot of things right that not many QBs can do, and he still is learning/growing as a player. As more experience comes, his ball handling will be better, he'll step up in the pocket more, and he'll go through his progressions more efficiently.

-No. Kyle Allen should not remain the starter when Cam Newton comes back 100% healthy. Cam is (gasps) actually a more accurate thrower in tight windows in more tense situations than Kyle Allen has shown. He handles pressure better. His "overthrows" are the most overblown narrative out there and completely ignorant in the eyes of anyone who's actually watched his film. He also has more experience.

-No. Cam Newton has not sucked ever since 2015. It's like some of you have collective amnesia from the latter 2017 and early 2018 run where Cam was on a hot streak and in the MVP conversation. I dare say his performance in the 2017 playoffs was the best I've ever seen from Cam, especially considering the context of his o-line and practice squad WRs and outplaying a solid Drew Brees' performance. In fact, a healthy Cam Newton is better than his 2015 form, as he's been more accurate than before.

-No. Just because Cam Newton is a better QB than Kyle Allen doesn't mean Allen sucks. 

-Yes, it is possible for both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton to be good QBs. That can be mutually true without the clash of "blah blah blah Kyle Allen suxs" and "blah blah blah Cam Newton suxs." Pretend we have two capable starters on the team, because that's our current situation. It's just the one with more experience, an MVP award, superbowl appearance, multiple playoff wins, multiple NFL records, ROTY award, etc. happens to be the better option. That's a fact. Kyle Allen is still good but to hold him to the standard of Cam is idiotic and to downplay his impact for us is also moronic.

-Yes, it's fair to question Cam's health going forward. nothing is proven until played on the field. 

-Yes, it's idiotic to assume he'll suck going forward still.

-Yes, it's still moronic to assume Cam has sucked after 2015 or never lived up to that form.

-Yes, it's possible to support the Panthers if you like both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton.

-Yes, it is possible to enjoy a win without turning it into a Kyle Allen vs Cam Newton warzone. I mean we're 2-2 trending up now that's all that matters.

Just my few cents on this matter.

You assume Cam will ever be 100% healthy. Without attending to his shoulder injury from 2016 other than having arthroscopic surgery, I'm not sure he can ever be 2015 Cam. There were some throws Cam used to make that would wow you because he could place it 50 yards on a rope.

Now Cam's arm strength is on par with Allen's. Allen has superior ability to read defenses and with ball placement to Cam though.

So if the field is leveled by Cam's inability to run the ball and without that, Cam is JAG. 

Sorry. 

[Saca312]

Just now, CPcavedweller said:

Allen has superior ability to read defenses and with ball placement to Cam though

yeah that's false.

cam's ball placement has been far superior to allens. like not even close lol.

and his ability to read defenses is way better. simple breakdown from 2017 over how cam progresses and read through the y-cross concept and how good he is.

[Jeremy Igo]

1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

Cam is (gasps) actually a more accurate thrower in tight windows in more tense situations than Kyle Allen has shown.

ummmmm... hmmmm

I agree Cam is the better QB when healthy. Not sure I can agree here now though. Allen has threaded needles I haven't seen Cam thread in 4 seasons.

[jfra78]

2 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

You assume Cam will ever be 100% healthy. Without attending to his shoulder injury from 2016 other than having arthroscopic surgery, I'm not sure he can ever be 2015 Cam. There were some throws Cam used to make that would wow you because he could place it 50 yards on a rope.

Now Cam's arm strength is on par with Allen's. Allen has superior ability to read defenses and with ball placement to Cam though.

So if the field is leveled by Cam's inability to run the ball and without that, Cam is JAG. 

Sorry. 

For everything that cam has given to this organization and to the city of charlotte, he deserves the chance to get healthy. I will hold my opinions on whether Cam is done or not until then.

[Saca312]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy Igo said:

ummmmm... hmmmm

I agree Cam is the better QB when healthy. Not sure I can agree here now though. Allen has threaded needles I haven't seen Cam thread in 4 seasons.

Well, four seasons would count 2016, and I got plenty of examples from there of him threading insane needles during a down year.

Also got examples from the Cowboys game in 2018. 

 

[Jeremy Igo]

13 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

For everything that cam has given to this organization and to the city of charlotte, he deserves the chance to get healthy.

Abso-friggin-lutely

 

[lightsout]

1 minute ago, Saca312 said:

he heals up from his lisfranc injury 100% and the coaching staff doesn't rush him back in.

for goodness sakes it's not like he has an achilles. his shoulder's fine given his velocity, all he needs now is the ability to plant his foot and he'll go back to his early MVP-esque 2018 form

 

We hope. Because even in the preseason game prior to the injury to his foot, Cam wasn't wowing. Understandable too, as it was his first action post surgery. And that is what terrifies me.

 

Say Allen wins out or drops 1 between now and let's say November. We're sitting at 5-2, 6-2, something like that. Cam comes back. Cam is healthy but rusty. Has two meh games. We drop to 5-4, 6-4. Figures it out, knocks the rust off, 8-4. Two more games where things just don't go out way, 8-6. Then the season ends with us being 10-6, maybe playoffs? Or 8-8 and missing.

Real possibility of the above happening and to ignore that is silly. Which is the fear of removing Allen if he's playing really well. It's one thing for your starter to miss two games mid season, it's another for your starter to never start healthy and get replaced. It leads to a very weird situation with a lot of uncomfortable thoughts if that backup goes out and wins.

[CPcavedweller]

2 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

yeah that's false.

cam's ball placement has been far superior to allens. like not even close lol.

and his ability to read defenses is way better. simple breakdown from 2017 over how cam progresses and read through the y-cross concept and how good he is.

Its 2019, not 2017. Plus you're comparing Cam to Cam, not Cam to Kyle. Go back and watch the All-22 film on Allen's three games, compare to Cam against similar defensive schemes, post evidence to prove your point.

From the eye ball test, it seems the only thing Allen doesn't have that Cam has is about 3 inches and 35 lbs. 2019 version of Cam, and even 2018, wasn't good enough for Norv's offense. We've seen Kyle attempt more deep throws through two games than were completed most all of last season, including the one that drew a pass interference call in Houston. 

Those are the throws Cam hasn't been making that must be made in this offense to open things up underneath. If Cam can't do that, he needs to sit until he can. 

Nevermind the fact that the last odd numbered year that the Panthers had a losing record was 2011. With Allen, the Panthers are 3-0. For now, it appears he gives you the best shot of winning. You ride that wave as long as you can. 

[CPcavedweller]

8 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

For everything that cam has given to this organization and to the city of charlotte, he deserves the chance to get healthy. I will hold my opinions on whether Cam is done or not until then.

I didn't say Cam was done. I said that without Cam's ability to run and with his new lack of velocity on the ball, he is just another guy. You can't make a supposition from that if you want that he should be replaced, but the fact of the matter is that Cam has had one of the highest off target throw percentages in the NFL every season since he came in the league.

If Cam can't throw with the same velocity as he previously could, and doesn't want to run, he needs to reinvent himself as a pure pocket passer which requires more than he's done to this point. 

One minor, but important, detail can be seen in efficiency. The Panthers offense with Allen appears to be far less susceptible to 3and outs, missed throws, dropped passes, and missed reads.