The Underperformers: WR Corps

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm blanking, have we ever tried Samuel at returns?

I still think ultimately, DJ Moore is probably better as a complementary receiver. We likely still need someone else as our main load bearer.

Would previously have been happy with  Jarius Wright at number three, but not this year. Maybe Chris Hogan can do that if he stays healthy.

I cannot recall him at returner but, like you, I am not sure about it. I wouldn't see why he might not be decent at it.

I agree on DJ, I have some hope for him but not really as a "bell cow WR." I don't think he can be our #1 guy. 

Wright I liked too and his huge catch percentage drop off is puzzling. I wish I had some more detailed metrics or some really in depth tape break down to see if Allen isn't making the right reads, if Allen isn't getting the throws on time, if Allen isn't putting the ball where it needs to be consistently or if this is mostly on the WR corps. I suspect it is a shared blame. The "eye test" seems to indicate that.

[Matt62881]

1 hour ago, raz said:

i don't think samuel should be anywhere near a starting lineup in the nfl.   i could see him being of great use maybe, but not as a wideout.    

Have you seen his tds? Dude catches everything thrown his way and Allen has underthrown him for the equivalent of minimum 150 yrds and 2 tds. He would be on pace for 700 or more yards. I hope other gms think like you so we can get him back cheap.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I cannot recall him at returner but, like you, I am not sure about it. I wouldn't see why he might not be decent at it.

I agree on DJ, I have some hope for him but not really as a "bell cow WR." I don't think he can be our #1 guy. 

Wright I liked too and his huge catch percentage drop off is puzzling. I wish I had some more detailed metrics or some really in depth tape break down to see if Allen isn't making the right reads, if Allen isn't getting the throws on time, if Allen isn't putting the ball where it needs to be consistently or if this is mostly on the WR corps. I suspect it is a shared blame. The "eye test" seems to indicate that.

I've said before the most impossible thing to predict in the NFL is how long somebody's going to be good and/or when they're going to hit the wall.

You could gather every bit of analytical information from the history of the NFL, put together a database and create numerous predictive models, and you'd still just be guessing.

[MountaineerChemist10]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I always thought this board kind of overrated Proehl's coaching, but I'd have to agree he's probably better than what we have now.

Are his sons still in school? I thought I'd seen that at least one of them graduated.

Not sure about the UNC one. But I think his youngest, Blake, is still at ECU. Not too shabby either; has 40/532/2 so far this season.

[Car123]

1 hour ago, Kinographer said:

I don't get why everyone gives DJ Moore a pass. He hasn't looked nearly deserving of a 1st round pick. He's looked like a 3rd or 4th option at best, not the homerun threat we were hoping he'd be. 

Again how many WRs look like a hall of famer in their second season?

 

[top dawg]

Moore and Samuel in particular looked like they were progressing last season. I know I'm not blind. Some of your need to ask yourselves, "What has changed?" Do this before you start ragging on the receivers! Moreover, Smitty may have busted Allen in the face by now with the consistent lack of ball placement (j/k, but you get my drift). 

At the end of the day, I think there's validity on both sides of the argument, but I can't really develop any type of a clear position under the current situation, and I think that anyone who is being totally honest would probably feel something similar.

[mc52beast]

4 hours ago, ncfan said:

I went back and rewatched the game in gamepass last night.

 

Another thing that stuck out to me.  The first Allen endzone int.  It was intended for Moore but was short.

Moore was within a few yards of the defender who picked it.

Moore just sat there.  Didnt even make a play on the ball nor made a play to make a defensive play.  His body language, he just looked disinterested.

 

This new WR coach is trash.

How do you say it’s on the coach? He can’t force someone to make a play, can’t force someone to tackle after an int, can’t force someone to be interested 

[CRA]

3 hours ago, Matt62881 said:

Only disagree with is Samuel, i think he is an upgraded Ginn(better hands and route running) i think hes the perfect #2 with Newton that is worth 750 to 1k yards avg on a season. Just think hes better then Austin or Harvin thats all, ive seen him catch 5 to 10 balls a game, and you dont do that without decent route running.

Ginn has always been a pure WR though.   And as knocked as Ginn has been over his career for running his routes....Samuel isn't as good at it as Ginn.  He shouldn't be either. Not in terms of being a pure WR.  I think he can get better separation at times on the some short throws because he simply has better agility and overall athletic ability.  But his actual routes suck and he isn't a very good at being a WR.  

Samuel was more a RB than WR in college.  I think people forget that. 

And Percy Harvin had games where he logged 7 8 9 10 11 12 catches a game too in the NFL. 

The knock on Samuel IMO still applies when we drafted him.  Samuel would have made sense for us if we hadn't drafted CMC.  You could work him into a lot of quirky short throws.  Have him in and out of the backfield.   He was a head scratcher in you recall when we drafted him because of us taking CMC.  Samuel never fit out wide as a traditional WR.  He is basically that quirky stud hybrid LB that often gets drafted by teams who can't use him right. 

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

17 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Moore and Samuel in particular looked like they were progressing last season. I know I'm not blind. Some of your need to ask yourselves, "What has changed?"

Well, the receiver coach for one, and that's potentially quite meaningful.

You can talk about Allen but let's be real. Neither guy looked good in Week One or Two either (Moore in Week 1 particularly).

[Car123]

We haven't had a 1200 yard receiver since 2011 and before that was in 2008 and people have the audacity to call Moore a #4 wide receiver.

[top dawg]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

Ginn was always been a pure WR though.   And as knocked as Ginn has been over his career for running his routes....Samuel isn't as good at it as Ginn.  He shouldn't be either. Not in terms of being a pure WR.  I think he can get better separation at times on the some short throws because he simply has better agility and overall athletic ability.  But his actual routes suck and he isn't a very good being a WR.  

Samuel was more a RB than WR in college.  I think people forget that. 

And Percy Harvin had games where he logged 7 8 9 10 11 12 catches a game too in the NFL. 

The knock on Samuel IMO still applies when we drafted him.  Samuel would have made sense for us if we hadn't drafted CMC.  You could work him into a lot of quirky short throws.  Have him in and out of the backfield.   He was a head scratcher in you recall when we drafted him because of us taking CMC.  Samuel never fit out wide as a traditional WR.  He is basically that quirky stud hybrid LB that often gets drafted by teams who can't use him right. 

 

 

We use CMC way too much, and Samuel not enough (in the look). I know that some people believe he's just a gadget player, but I believe his best use is in the slot. And sure, it won't hurt to sub him in at the RB position for a down or two some damn time. But that's just me.

[Car123]

Just now, top dawg said:

We use CMC way too much, and Samuel not enough (in the look). I know that some people believe he's just a gadget player, but I believe his best use is in the slot. And sure, it won't hurt to sub him in at the RB position for a down or two some damn time. But that's just me.

We used him better last season. Where are all the creative plays we saw last season?

[LinvilleGorge]

I think Moore is coming along quite nicely. Samuel is disappointing though. His development track is looking more and more like he's probably going to end up being a one trick pony gadget player in the NFL. Fortunately for him, his one trick is highly coveted. Unfortunately for us, we're ill equipped at QB to take advantage of that one trick. Samuel and the Panthers are just a poor match at the moment.

[top dawg]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, the receiver coach for one, and that's potentially quite meaningful.

You can talk about Allen but let's be real. Neither guy looked good in Week One or Two either (Moore in Week 1 particularly).

I was alluding to the WR coach as well, and knew that if you were watching, you'd be the one to pick up on it.

Samuel looked good both weeks, especially the second week when Cam was missing him left and right. Two or three misses in a game can have profound consequences.