Kyle Allen Only Struggles Because of the OL

[WarPanthers89]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've seen a lot of people ask the question "What benefit is there to putting Will Grier out on the field?"

My return question would be what benefit is there to putting Kyle Allen out on the field for two more games?

I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of "wait and see" you could find. But I've waited, and I've seen.

Now I'd like to see something else.

No benefit at all putting Allen out on the field for two more games other than not having to start Grier so he can have a true red shirt year. We could sit Luke, CMC and everyone else for all I care. The season is over. 

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I understand you have a healthy skepticism of statistics but what possible fault could you find with using the statistics I mentioned as a reference? How are they not a perfectly valid method of isolating pass protection?

Hyperbole gets frustrating as do all the definitives. I guess it is a symptom of the other sicknesses that society is struggling with.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you about the point that all of Allen's mistakes can't be attributed to pass protection.

But even with that said, I do believe this line is as bad as any I've seen, and I don't really need the stats to tell me that.

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

His point about simply doing it to appease the fans is valid. That decision should not be made on that basis. However, we all question the soundness of the coaching staff's ability to make roster choices. 

At this point, if Allen continues to play badly and Grier continues to sit, how do we just not assume Grier is not capable of playing in the NFL? If he isn't capable of playing as a third round draft pick, why in the world did we take him?

You have reminded me of one thing here. Our coaching staff has been absolutely full of sh-t for a long time.

How many times have we heard them say "we're going to do this" or "we're going to try that" and sat back and watched it never happen?

We'll probably get a good look at Will Grier about the same time we get one at Cameron Artis-Payne.

[Snake]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I actually think this is the worst line I've seen the Panthers field.

That doesn't really excuse mistakes that Allen made, though. Not every miscue can be attributed to bad blocking.

I don't think it's ever one thing. From what I saw Allen rush his throws all day because he thought there was pressure there. It's typical of a offense that allows their QB to get sacked too much. I think it's pretty ridiculous as well to say this line is good enough when it was the reason Cam was injured in the first place. 

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm not actually disagreeing with you about the point that all of Allen's mistakes can't be attributed to pass protection.

But even with that said, I do believe this line is as bad as any I've seen, and I don't really need the stats to tell me that.

No, I think we just disagree on the "worst OL" and statistical analysis in general, which is fine. 

I wouldn't ever attempt to make the argument that this isn't ONE OF THE worst pass protecting offensive lines we have ever had. That is something that comes through statistically OR by watching them play. 

[TheRed]

The OL has been iffy since Gross retired minus maybe the 2015 season. This is nothing new. It's going to once again be a top priority in the offseason but either way it's not going to be magically fixed in one swoop. We aren't the only team trying to mask OL deficiencies, other teams are able to win despite their line. Think maybe it has anything to do with limiting turnovers?

Even with the offensive line struggles, and how much our defense has been getting abused we were still in position to possibly tie or take the lead at the end against a good Seahawks team who are amongst the best in the NFC right now. Remove the turnovers, and there is little doubt that we have at the very least an opportunity to steal the win. Stop trying so hard to rationalize mediocrity. This type of "just happy to be here" nonsense is exactly the kind of culture players like Cam Newton had to fight tooth and nail to rid from this franchise. But as soon as an undrafted scrappy gym rat takes the reigns behind center suddenly losing isn't the end all be all.

[Wolfcop]

10 minutes ago, WarPanthers89 said:

No benefit at all putting Allen out on the field for two more games other than not having to start Grier so he can have a true red shirt year. We could sit Luke, CMC and everyone else for all I care. The season is over. 

Hold on now...lets not be sitting CMC when I have a FF championship to win this week. Give me 1 more week. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

No, I think we just disagree on the "worst OL" and statistical analysis in general, which is fine. 

I wouldn't ever attempt to make the argument that this isn't ONE OF THE worst pass protecting offensive lines we have ever had. That is something that comes through statistically OR by watching them play. 

Maybe the best way I can sum up my feelings about statistics would be to say that I look at them about the same way as I do Rivera and Hurney.

They might be right about something sometimes, but they don't do it consistently enough for me to trust them.

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Ok. My bad for not seeing that. I was looking at this and didn’t even notice our row just that we were looking to be right up near the top which still isn’t a good thing. The OL this year is garbage just maybe not as garbage as 2000, more garbage than 2014 when Norwell and Turner did start 9 games a piece next to Kalil.

Your other historically bad years would be 2010 and 1998 for reference. With regards to pass protection, that 2014 unit was not EXCEPTIONALLY bad for us.

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, Snake said:

I don't think it's ever one thing. From what I saw Allen rush his throws all day because he thought there was pressure there. It's typical of a offense that allows their QB to get sacked too much. I think it's pretty ridiculous as well to say this line is good enough when it was the reason Cam was injured in the first place. 

I don't think anyone is legitimately making an argument that our OL is good enough. Moreso that Allen is performing worse than average even among bottom five OL play teams. 

He just doesn't have it. Which, he was a bust in college and an UDFA. Considering those things, he's probably performing pretty well for that class of player. But, he's also unlikely to be anything but a backup after this season. 

[mav1234]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think anyone is legitimately making an argument that our OL is good enough. Moreso that Allen is performing worse than average even among bottom five OL play teams. 

He just doesn't have it. Which, he was a bust in college and an UDFA. Considering those things, he's probably performing pretty well for that class of player. But, he's also unlikely to be anything but a backup after this season. 

I could see Allen going on some place else and ending up a mediocre / journeyman backup/sometimes starter.  I don't think he is someone we would want to build around at all, but I think his play deteriorating has been a reflection of the team as a whole (rather than being the cause of it), and I think he is probably better than he has shown, but still not worth keeping around as more than a cheap backup. 

And, if we do bring Cam back/sign a veteran and also draft a QB high, Allen is likely the odd one out.  I don't see them dropping Grier next year and we won't carry 4 QBs.

[raleigh-panther]

The Panthers Oline is atrocious. 
Kyle Allen is not a pro level QB or backup. He wasn’t last year, he isn’t this year

A third round draft pick was placed on Will Greer.  Before the year passes, in these last two games, imho we need to see if he could be a serviceable backup 

I believe in stats and trends and probability and risk and risk mitigation but I also know what my eyes tell me every Sunday 

and what film should be telling the coaches every week. Btw, I am no fan of Matsko. All I ever heard from Ron was how great Matsko was and every year the lines were below standard 

we all know the story with the line. The question becomes will they fit the scheme of the next coach?  .  Can they be salvaged?   Given contract status, could they be traded or release if the first two questions are answered 

the same is true defensively 

one stat that’s true, a team going no where in pro football with two shitty lines 

this is what is left from Ron Rivera, he and Hurneys draft picks and pro scouts 

[kungfoodude]

26 minutes ago, stbugs said:

JFC, you are cherry picking. I’m giving you sets of games and you grab 1 freaking game from each bucket including one that didn’t exist when I posted the splits after last week. It’s like arguing with a kid putting his hands over his ears. There’s not much else to say when you say I’m cherry picking posting the stats I posted last week and saying BEFORE Seattle because I’m not from the future and saying that it’s his first real bad game without pressure and then saying I’m cherry picking when I post stats with every fuging game he’s started. Cherry-picking with someone’s career stats? SMH. 

Yeah, well you also picked a data set that eliminated 2 of his 13 career starts, so I have reasons to question the validity of what you were even trying to do. 

Here's a thought, maybe make your splits less arbitrary and make them based on the league average for sacks allowed.

Then they look like this:

2018(NFL League Average: 2.5 sacks/game)

Above Average

1-0, 2 TD's, 0 INT's

2019(NFL League Average 2.4 sacks/game)

Above Average

2-1, 7 TD's, 3 INT's

Below Average

3-6, 11 TD's, 15 INT's

[tiger7_88]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28307949/picking-fatal-flaws-matchups-avoid-2019-nfl-playoff-contenders

I hate it for the kid.  Not his fault he's been put into the situation he's in.

But the people who early in the season were eager to give him a significant raise and "lock him down" with a contract extension and bet this team's future on him?