Tepper's Vision For a New Stadium

[45catfan]

33 minutes ago, PanthersBigD said:

I do not. However I think someone saying they're moving to the suburbs for lower taxes is disingenuous. 

Sure you can put a larger down payment on your mortgage with the proceeds from the sale of your home up north, but typically, you're not earning your NYC salary working out of the Fort Mill or Charlotte office, so purchase price is only one consideration in determining where to live. People move to the burbs because they want a big house they can't afford in the city, and they want homogenous communities. Charlotte schools were actually pretty good until some asshole from out of state sued to get rid of busing back in 2001: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-desegregation-and-resegregation-of-charlottes-schools?verso=true. I attended CMS schools my entire school career, during busing, and it was great. Back then East Charlotte was the suburbs, and driving to Weddington or Mooresville was like driving to another state. 

Me too and the schools were not great.  JT Williams and Garinger were not great schools and assuming they are not any better today.  Drugs, crime, gangs and homicides are not hallmarks of great schools.   Agreed, east Charlotte was the 'burbs' and middle-to-upper class depending on exactly where on the east side.  Not any more.  I practically grew up at Eastland mall until it got unsafe.  I remember it before actual cops were detailed there regularly because it got so bad.   I grew up in Hickory Grove and remember when the community had one stop light with a little church on the corner, Hickory Grove Baptist.  The east side is a far cry from that now. Point being, to simulate NEW growth on that side of town that is tired and worn down, It will take more than MLS office buildings and practice fields.

[1of10Charnatives]

1 minute ago, Snake said:

Businesses are not going to move. Like where SC where Taxes are higher than 15%? I mean I get it but having a state of the art stadium will bring in a bunch of commerce and will make Charlotte even more of a destination. Yes your typical redneck family won't be able to pay 500 in taxes but that's not what your trying to attract anyway. The reason nothern states have such a better educational system and public works is because they have the resources to do it. I get taxes are a boogie word but honestly unless you live in NJ or California your money is spent well. Also if you don't like how the money is spent I suggest voting in people who will spend it right. 

You don't think businesses take tax rates into account when considering where to locate? Let me politely disagree. Fortune 500 companies like Google put states and municipalities in the prisoner's dilemma in order to extract the largest possible tax breaks from them in a form legalized bribery. 

You are arguing that the stadium will have a positive economic impact. Supporters of public funds for private stadiums have long used this argument, however, they are unable to point to any solid peer reviewed data that supports this notion in a tangible way. If you can prove it to me with actual math, then I'm all for it, if not, I'm not buying it, sorry. 

I do vote based on how elected officials spend my money, and I try to inform and encourage others to do so as well, but I am only one person and when voting there are numerous factors to take into account. You may like one budgetary decision a local elected body makes but not another, so it's not always that simple. Northern states may or may not have better anything, but they are currently seeing their residents flee from there to here en masse and higher taxes is one of the many reasons. People are voting on that with their feet and by where they live with their pocketbook, and the voting does not suggest they favor the way things are going up north.

Let me be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to tax increases to pay for public needs, what I'm opposed to is public funds used to build stadiums for private businesses, especially when there are many other more important public needs unfunded and the private business is highly profitable.

[Harbingers]

Turd pitch says it all.

[Squirrel]

What about the PSL holders? Address that first. 

[Anybodyhome]

Hotspur Stadium:

"The stadium has a capacity of 62,303 (initially 62,062), but due to the need to segregate fans, the full capacity may never be reached for association football matches as some seats are deliberately kept unused. Attendance is counted by the number of fans going through the gates rather than the number of tickets issued as is the case in some grounds such as the Emirates as well as Spurs at Wembley where attendance figures may include season ticket holders who did not turn up for matches and unused free tickets.^"

^{Sounds like a plan.}

[Snake]

39 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

You don't think businesses take tax rates into account when considering where to locate? Let me politely disagree. Fortune 500 companies like Google put states and municipalities in the prisoner's dilemma in order to extract the largest possible tax breaks from them in a form legalized bribery. 

You are arguing that the stadium will have a positive economic impact. Supporters of public funds for private stadiums have long used this argument, however, they are unable to point to any solid peer reviewed data that supports this notion in a tangible way. If you can prove it to me with actual math, then I'm all for it, if not, I'm not buying it, sorry. 

I do vote based on how elected officials spend my money, and I try to inform and encourage others to do so as well, but I am only one person and when voting there are numerous factors to take into account. You may like one budgetary decision a local elected body makes but not another, so it's not always that simple. Northern states may or may not have better anything, but they are currently seeing their residents flee from there to here en masse and higher taxes is one of the many reasons. People are voting on that with their feet and by where they live with their pocketbook, and the voting does not suggest they favor the way things are going up north.

Let me be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to tax increases to pay for public needs, what I'm opposed to is public funds used to build stadiums for private businesses, especially when there are many other more important public needs unfunded and the private business is highly profitable.

I'm not saying they don't. What I'm saying is that for them to up root their company it would cost much more. Not only that but NC has some of the cheapest state taxes. Also if you are talking locally where? Charlotte is a ideal location. The fear mongering of businesses moving because they can't exploit a state is just that. 

[4Corners]

14 minutes ago, Anybodyhome said:

Hotspur Stadium:

"The stadium has a capacity of 62,303 (initially 62,062), but due to the need to segregate fans, the full capacity may never be reached for association football matches as some seats are deliberately kept unused. Attendance is counted by the number of fans going through the gates rather than the number of tickets issued as is the case in some grounds such as the Emirates as well as Spurs at Wembley where attendance figures may include season ticket holders who did not turn up for matches and unused free tickets.^"

^{Sounds like a plan.}

What do they mean segregate fans?

[1of10Charnatives]

2 minutes ago, Snake said:

I'm not saying they don't. What I'm saying is that for them to up root their company it would cost much more. Not only that but NC has some of the cheapest state taxes. Also if you are talking locally where? Charlotte is a ideal location. The fear mongering of businesses moving because they can't exploit a state is just that. 

Snake, please tell me you are aware that pro sports franchises themselves are the poster children for this very thing. They continually threaten to move to another city and or state if they are not granted ever greater tax breaks and subsidies as a bribe to stay. You cannot possibly be a sports fan and be ignorant of this. Heck, one of the main reasons NFL owners preferred for LA not to have an NFL franchise for so long was because it was highly useful as an obvious location to threaten to move to, allowing them to bully state and local governments into forking over tax dollars to them.

In regard to the expense of moving, it's a simple math equation and they will do it, have done it, and are doing it all the time. The tax savings accumulate year after year, the move is a one time expense. If the cost of moving is outweighed by the long term savings on taxes,  they do it. Charlotte is an ideal location for businesses for many reasons, but it depends on the business and the reasons. Banks locate here without question because of the pool of local talent in their field, but many medium sized manufacturing concerns have relocated to neighboring counties in the past generation because the lower taxes there are a bigger factor to them. This conversation very rapidly becomes a complex one with many factors, depending on the business, their industry and what matters to it.

Regardless, that is a side issue to the main point, which is that highly profitable private businesses should not be the beneficiary of public gifts, funding and tax breaks. If you can show me with solid supportable math that proves such gifts are a net positive and not a handout to private interests, i will change my position in a heartbeat. However, stadium funding supporters have been making this argument for literally generations and have yet to provide any such data to support their vague assertion, so until I see hard numbers, I'm not buying it.

[45catfan]

7 minutes ago, 4Corners said:

What do they mean segregate fans?

Soccer hooligans are a thing over there and fights break out regularly.  I'm assuming it's to separate the fan bases as to keep the peace.

[1of10Charnatives]

6 minutes ago, 4Corners said:

What do they mean segregate fans?

In america we have a problem with gun violence. In Europe, they don't have guns but have to keep fans of different teams segregated from each other during matches or violence ensues. You know how they have a jail right in the stadium in Philly? Think that problem but on steroids.

[PanthersBigD]

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Me too and the schools were not great.  JT Williams and Garinger were not great schools and assuming they are not any better today.  Drugs, crime, gangs and homicides are not hallmarks of great schools.   Agreed, east Charlotte was the 'burbs' and middle-to-upper class depending on exactly where on the east side.  Not any more.  I practically grew up at Eastland mall until it got unsafe.  I remember it before actual cops were detailed there regularly because it got so bad.   I grew up in Hickory Grove and remember when the community had one stop light with a little church on the corner, Hickory Grove Baptist.  The east side is a far cry from that now. Point being, to simulate NEW growth on that side of town that is tired and worn down, It will take more than MLS office buildings and practice fields.

I grew up in Hickory Grove as well. Did you go to JT? I did and it was fine. I feel like I was prepared for high school just fine. Didn’t go to Garinger because I got into a diff magnet school, but the rest of my family did  and all did well in college.

[1of10Charnatives]

2 minutes ago, Kinographer said:

I don't think true fans really give a poo about having a state of the art mega stadium. I'd rather have it the Packers way than the Cowboys. I really think that Tepper is just trying to turn it into a vacation home.

Completely with you on this. Don't need my team's stadium to be a shiny new toy. Just need it to be solid facility for football. I'll take Lambeau field over that monstrosity in Texas any day.

[Happy Panther]

1 hour ago, 4Corners said:

What do they mean segregate fans?

 

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Soccer hooligans are a thing over there and fights break out regularly.  I'm assuming it's to separate the fan bases as to keep the peace.

I don't feel like its been an issue of late. But you still see empty seats between fanbases or even barriers. I think they have visitors sections in the PL kind of like you see in college football.

But yeah sometimes they get drunk and try to beat the snot out of each other...

[Forty-Eight]

What’s Tepper’s vision for a SUPER BOWL TEAM?