Why the Panthers Should NOT want Ben Johnson

[Jay Roosevelt]

Sometimes I think the whole "leader of men" thing is B.S.

I mean, just look at Mike McDaniel in Miami. You're telling me he's a leader of men? No. But he's an offensive genius who has his team playing as well as anyone in the league.

How about Kyle Shanahan? Does he really strike anyone as a leader of men? That's one of the reasons Matt Rhule was supposed to be such a great coach. He ended up being a glorified gym teacher.

I'm not saying that approach can't work with the right guy, but it's by no means a requirement in today's NFL.

[CRA]

25 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Sometimes I think the whole "leader of men" thing is B.S.

I mean, just look at Mike McDaniel in Miami. You're telling me he's a leader of men? No. But he's an offensive genius who has his team playing as well as anyone in the league.

How about Kyle Shanahan? Does he really strike anyone as a leader of men? That's one of the reasons Matt Rhule was supposed to be such a great coach. He ended up being a glorified gym teacher.

I'm not saying that approach can't work with the right guy, but it's by no means a requirement in today's NFL.

it will be interesting to see how the McDaniel's style plays out over a period of time though.  Especially as more time goes by on his O approach and film is out there.  I mean, it's pretty cool to watch them vs bad teams.   Especially with Hill.  But I wonder how his team looks over the long term and if what he has sells during the highs and lows over time.  He is sort of a unicorn at this level. 

Matt Rhule was never a leader of men type coach.  I don't care what the PR was.  At no point does he have that on his resume.   

[KatsAzz]

14 hours ago, jb2288 said:

Everything in the NFL is luck. One thing about Tepper I like is he will lean into a sunk cost. I’d say more than 50% of the owners would have given Reich another year. I remember how we all on here knew Rhule was trash early into season 2 yet he got a third year where Tepper had to do a mid season firing. He learned his lesson there at least 

Good observation by you and 100% correct.

[KatsAzz]

I have no idea if Tepper will bring in the right person to be head coach but I will have to give him credit for being willing to pay whatever it takes to get the one he choses.

[Pejorative Miscreant]

4 hours ago, Martin said:

 Think this is a very poor and at best very naive take on Ben Johnson. Nobody will take a job for less than their market value just because. Asking for what he thinks he will get doesn’t mean you’re not passionate about it. Also, saying Ben would accept half from other teams is just something he made up, he has no idea. He seems really bothered by the $15 million, and there is very little substance in his argument. This shouldn’t move the needle in any direction on how you feel about Ben as a potential HC.

Yes.  Whether you are an NFL HC or the slushy machine operator at the 7-11 you want to earn as much as possible.  If Johnson wants a premium here because of added risk factors such as Tepper BS then so be it.  I don't think any of this is substantiated but one would want to mitigate risk with something and if that is with $$$ who am I or this guy to say it is wrong.  If someone is willing to pay you X amount you are "worth" X amount.  Whether or not that turns into an equitable exchange is a risk the buyer has to absorb (see Miles Sanders).  

When Tepper hires a coach I don't care if he pays him 30 mill.  It is not part of the cap and is not my concern.  I just don't want another trash coach.  So far the best coach under the Tepper regime is the one he didn't have a hand in hiring.

[onmyown]

5 hours ago, CRA said:

I'd argue the opposite.  An established team needs someone to put them over the top with great Xs and Os, playing calling, etc.   Which is what we needed coming off Ron/Fox. 

A dumpster fire needs a leader of men to right the ship.  Build a respectable culture/locker room. 

We have gone backwards under Tepper. 

So Rivera and Fox were ‘leaders of men’. It’s why they preferred vets, they did well with talent already established. They sure as poo weren’t fostering, growing and developing any talent. Losing their way is better than losing trying something else. 

They don’t scheme according to strengths but try and fit players into their scheme. I will even quote I believe it was Fox (paraphrase) in regards to creating mismatches and scheme ‘our guys line up 1v1 and the better player wins, it’s us vs them’. That is a leader of men mindset. You see to these coaches it’s all about principal, whether it makes sense or not. And to the saavy vet who doesn’t need to be taught but led, you can see it being enticing. And thus they are ‘players coaches’. It’s exactly why Fox was such a great fit for the 2014/15 Broncos.

But that mindset is short lived. Eventually the vets phase out.

You don’t develop a young disorganized team like that. Sure a bit is required for any coach to establish a culture and expectations, not arguing that. But young players need teachers and the very best coaches, are teachers and leaders of men but I’d argue more of the former than the latter (Reid, Belicheck etc).

[csx]

9 minutes ago, onmyown said:

So Rivera and Fox were ‘leaders of men’. It’s why they preferred vets, they did well with talent already established. They sure as poo weren’t fostering, growing and developing any talent. Losing their way is better than losing trying something else. 

They don’t scheme according to strengths but try and fit players into their scheme. I will even quote I believe it was Fox (paraphrase) in regards to creating mismatches and scheme ‘our guys line up 1v1 and the better player wins, it’s us vs them’. That is a leader of men mindset. You see to these coaches it’s all about principal, whether it makes sense or not. And to the saavy vet who doesn’t need to be taught but led, you can see it being enticing. And thus they are ‘players coaches’. It’s exactly why Fox was such a great fit for the 2014/15 Broncos.

But that mindset is short lived. Eventually the vets phase out.

You don’t develop a young disorganized team like that. Sure a bit is required for any coach to establish a culture and expectations, not arguing that. But young players need teachers and the very best coaches, are teachers and leaders of men but I’d argue more of the former than the latter (Reid, Belicheck etc).

Most of the best players we ever had were drafted by thiose 2 coaches. Yet you suggest they needed established talent pre-established. Makes zero sense.

Edited December 28, 2023 by csx

[nctommy]

I think the guy is making a big deal about the 15mil because Tepper annoyed the other owners by giving Rhule the contract he did.  So if 15 mil is the price floated out there, where does that put him outside the vacuum of a fanbase viewing it as all that is important is wins?  Well let us see what 15 mil buys you.  How many coaches on these lists would you rather have than Brian Johnson at 15 mil, and you can get some of them at a discount if they were available! 

[Steelo]

The leader of men thing isn't BS maybe a bit overblown but it's still true.  There are plenty of examples of these types of coaches doing well in the NFL.

What does Dan Campbell teach..? Tomlin..? Harbaugh (John) was a ST coach before getting the HC gig.. I mean the hot thing is having some "Offensive Guru" That can make up plays in their sleep, which is def intriguing but at the end of the day he has to lead a room of men. Though, Players are lead by whom they respect. Look at our team twice after the HC has been fired, they play better than before because they are playing for someone they respect.  Some coaches walk in a room and demand respect, some will earn it.  At the end of the day it's luck.  This team absolutely needs a coach who can lead, who can teach, and who can relate to them on certain levels.  There is no cookie cutter answer as shown by the NFL time and time again.

 

[Steelo]

2 minutes ago, nctommy said:

I think the guy is making a big deal about the 15mil because Tepper annoyed the other owners by giving Rhule the contract he did.  So if 15 mil is the price floated out there, where does that put him outside the vacuum of a fanbase viewing it as all that is important is wins?  Well let us see what 15 mil buys you.  How many coaches on these lists would you rather have than Brian Johnson at 15 mil, and you can get some of them at a discount if they were available! 

You mean Ben Johnson... I wouldn't pay Brian 500k for his services at this point.

[csx]

Everyone is striving for the next young offensive Guru when it's really just Sean McVay who's created that trend.

Other than that it's old dudes like Reid, Bellichick, Arians who've won anything.

[nctommy]

1 minute ago, Steelo said:

You mean Ben Johnson... I wouldn't pay Brian 500k for his services at this point.

hahaha,  Shows you how much I don't care if he is the coach when I get his name wrong.  15 mil is ridiculous for an unproven coach.  Even coaches with extensions after winning Super Bowls are lower than that. 

[Steelo]

Just now, csx said:

Everyone is striving for the next young offensive Guru when it's really just Sean McVay who's created that trend.

Other than that it's old dudes like Reid, Bellichick, Arians who've won anything.

Yeah, lightning in a bottle, there are other examples of these type of dudes hitting the ground running.  

I'm leaning towards wanting a defensive coach before the pendulum swings and people realize that there aren't 32 prolific offensive minds that can be HCs.

[nctommy]

4 minutes ago, csx said:

Everyone is striving for the next young offensive Guru when it's really just Sean McVay who's created that trend.

Other than that it's old dudes like Reid, Bellichick, Arians who've won anything.

McVay got that money in an extension after he went to 2 super bowls.    https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2022/12/06/rams-sean-mcvay-contract-salary-ranking-highest-paid/#:~:text=According to Sportico%2C McVay makes,more per year than McVay.