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How about Steve Wilkes?

WarHeel

By WarHeel,
in Carolina Panthers

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WarHeel Mentor

WarHeel

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Just now, kungfoodude said:

He was a downgrade from Saleh and Ryans but it was a small step. 

IMO, he is the scapegoat for Shanahan's failures.

That’s my opinion as well. I know the coverage went soft near the end but the other 3.5 quarters can’t be downplayed.

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

If you want to make that argument fine, but they traded for him and he immediately became the starter and got a ton of minutes with Wilks running the defense.  DeMeco didn't have him last year when they were #1. 

It's not an argument. It's a fact. He is a bust. This has nothing to do with the SF defense(which was once again elite). 

Chase Young just sucks.

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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Just now, kungfoodude said:

It's not an argument. It's a fact. He is a bust. This has nothing to do with the SF defense(which was once again elite). 

Chase Young just sucks.

You are missing the point. The Niners traded for him and immediately started him. That means whoever was their prior was viewed as not as good by Wilks the DC. So that’s called an upgrade or at least Wilks viewed him as an upgrade.  I believe Young had 2 sacks in the big game when they were only bringing 4 rushers as well. 

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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

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16 minutes ago, WarHeel said:

Yeah that argument wasn’t holding any water regarding Wilks. Not sure why people hate the guy. I think there are better DCs and HCs but he’s far from what people make him out to be. 

I don’t hate the guy, far from it. I hated the idea that he should be our next HC. I hate that people are STILL making that wild ass claim. I disliked him as our DC as well, BOTH TIMES he took over as our DC our defense got worse. Happened in SF too. Sure maintaining #1 would be tough but the roster was even more stacked than the year before and the yards ranking dropped by 7. That’s not nothing. 

He seems like a good dude and players have said nothing but nice things about him so I have no reason to dislike the person. I just would never want him as the Panthers HC or DC. 

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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23 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

You are missing the point. The Niners traded for him and immediately started him. That means whoever was their prior was viewed as not as good by Wilks the DC. So that’s called an upgrade or at least Wilks viewed him as an upgrade.  I believe Young had 2 sacks in the big game when they were only bringing 4 rushers as well. 

I won't dispute that he played well in that game but he is genuinely a bust.

I am not really making an argument about Wilks or the D overall, I am just saying he sucks.

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WarHeel Mentor

WarHeel

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15 minutes ago, JawnyBlaze said:

I don’t hate the guy, far from it. I hated the idea that he should be our next HC. I hate that people are STILL making that wild ass claim. I disliked him as our DC as well, BOTH TIMES he took over as our DC our defense got worse. Happened in SF too. Sure maintaining #1 would be tough but the roster was even more stacked than the year before and the yards ranking dropped by 7. That’s not nothing. 

He seems like a good dude and players have said nothing but nice things about him so I have no reason to dislike the person. I just would never want him as the Panthers HC or DC. 

He took over our defense when McDermott went to Buffalo. Sean was the main reason our defense was so formidable in that 2013 run. So downgrading from that or in the latter part for the 49ers is not saying much. That’s the point I’m trying to make. HC position is much more than how you feel about his defense performing. The leadership aspect alone relative to Reich or Rhule cannot be understated.

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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16 minutes ago, JawnyBlaze said:

I don’t hate the guy, far from it. I hated the idea that he should be our next HC. I hate that people are STILL making that wild ass claim. I disliked him as our DC as well, BOTH TIMES he took over as our DC our defense got worse. Happened in SF too. Sure maintaining #1 would be tough but the roster was even more stacked than the year before and the yards ranking dropped by 7. That’s not nothing. 

He seems like a good dude and players have said nothing but nice things about him so I have no reason to dislike the person. I just would never want him as the Panthers HC or DC. 

I can't necessarily agree with that. It's about the scenario. He's better than what we have had under Tepper(most likely better than our recent hire, if I am being honest) but that's a low bar. That's sort of what we are as an organization, a low bar.

So in current condition, Wilks is a dude. In the IDEAL situation, he isn't the coach you would want. 

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Basbear Grand Master

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1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

I don’t hate the guy, far from it. I hated the idea that he should be our next HC. I hate that people are STILL making that wild ass claim. I disliked him as our DC as well, BOTH TIMES he took over as our DC our defense got worse. Happened in SF too. Sure maintaining #1 would be tough but the roster was even more stacked than the year before and the yards ranking dropped by 7. That’s not nothing. 

He seems like a good dude and players have said nothing but nice things about him so I have no reason to dislike the person. I just would never want him as the Panthers HC or DC. 

Yea, this is wilks to me in simple terms-

DB coach- Great

DC- Awful

HC- Average-below average

Zona truly screwed him, but thats why soooo many coaches avoided that place for the last 20+ years. Bidwell is worse than tepper and Im sure wilks didnt draft rosen either. SF you or I could have coached that unit with success. Shame how he getting all this bad luck, but you need to make your own at some point. Facts are there are many great coaches that are great ST, DL, DB, QB, etc, but dont make good OC, DC or HC. I bet a top DB job pays a little over 1 million. Nothing wrong with being a great one of them and getting paid well. 

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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

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3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I can't necessarily agree with that. It's about the scenario. He's better than what we have had under Tepper(most likely better than our recent hire, if I am being honest) but that's a low bar. That's sort of what we are as an organization, a low bar.

So in current condition, Wilks is a dude. In the IDEAL situation, he isn't the coach you would want. 

Assuming Wilkes would turn our ~4 win average team (under Reich and Rhule) into a 7-8 win team, that’s the absolute worst situation. I’d much rather get 2 wins under Reich than 7 under Wilkes because 2 wins will get him replaced quicker. 7-8 wins a year might be enough to stick around for four or five years but that’ll be his ceiling. As a HC Wilkes is basically Rivera but with worse defensive chops and no Cam to make him look better than he is. I’d much rather take a chance and if we find the next great young HC, then awesome. If it’s a flop (like Reich) at least we’re taking another shot sooner rather than later, plus (theoretically) getting better players through higher draft picks. 

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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

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3 hours ago, WarHeel said:

He took over our defense when McDermott went to Buffalo. Sean was the main reason our defense was so formidable in that 2013 run. So downgrading from that or in the latter part for the 49ers is not saying much. That’s the point I’m trying to make. HC position is much more than how you feel about his defense performing. The leadership aspect alone relative to Reich or Rhule cannot be understated.

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make from the first part. He took over from good DCs so it’s not his fault he’s not as good as them?  And as to the second part, sure he’s a better leader than Reich or Rhule but see my above post for my full feelings on him as an HC. His absolute ceiling as a HC is a poor man’s Rivera. I saw him as HC for us, he’s WAAAY too conservative and scared. Nothing would be worse than to get stuck in the purgatory of being good enough to not get fired but too bad to be a contender. 

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fanpanther Experienced

fanpanther

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1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

Assuming Wilkes would turn our ~4 win average team (under Reich and Rhule) into a 7-8 win team, that’s the absolute worst situation. I’d much rather get 2 wins under Reich than 7 under Wilkes because 2 wins will get him replaced quicker. 7-8 wins a year might be enough to stick around for four or five years but that’ll be his ceiling. As a HC Wilkes is basically Rivera but with worse defensive chops and no Cam to make him look better than he is. I’d much rather take a chance and if we find the next great young HC, then awesome. If it’s a flop (like Reich) at least we’re taking another shot sooner rather than later, plus (theoretically) getting better players through higher draft picks. 

People act like wilks would have done well here as hc he failed in arizona with better qb and more talent here it would have been even worse.  He just got let go in san fran not bc he was awesome at his job.  

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WarHeel Mentor

WarHeel

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1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make from the first part. He took over from good DCs so it’s not his fault he’s not as good as them?  And as to the second part, sure he’s a better leader than Reich or Rhule but see my above post for my full feelings on him as an HC. His absolute ceiling as a HC is a poor man’s Rivera. I saw him as HC for us, he’s WAAAY too conservative and scared. Nothing would be worse than to get stuck in the purgatory of being good enough to not get fired but too bad to be a contender. 

The point was that Sean was arguably the best DC in the league at the time. So your complaint that he didn’t live up to or exceed the same expectations in pure performance is an unreasonable expectation . 

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