An honest look at Bryce Young

[frankw]

7 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

The most anyone is saying is that he was playing like a top 10ish QB during a certain portion of the season.

Well that's the problem. That portion of games was when our playoff hopes were either teetering on the edge at best or we were eliminated altogether. We need to see Bryce Young perform like that when the pressure is on. That is what defines a franchise QB.

[Icege]

38 minutes ago, CRA said:

PFF is declaring him best off the day and using plays like a 50/50 jump ball to AT that went incomplete to build it.

You're now willfully misrepresenting what is classified as a BTT which has since been cleared up.

It is not the oversimplification you are attempting for. I understand I put down a lot of info earlier, but it is more valid than one's own desire to not relent.

[ForJimmy]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

Yeah, the cherry pick.  Last 2 games of the season he played great.  But a couple random games isn’t top 10 QB talk.  Because we don’t exclude all the bad from the other 32.   That’s my problem with cherry picked top 10 talk….one guy in the convo gets cherry picked data and everyone else has their bad included for Bryce to sniff them. 

but the last 2 games also run wildly counter to the rest of his work post benching.  And that XL Philly drop carries wild weight vs Philly.  It was a throw he should have been caught for an upset.  People revisit that game and act like he played great that day.  Or a good statistical game like AZ where he wasn’t doing much.. Hubbard was the O. 

Sure it was a cherry pick.  Some people call it a trend since it was happening during the 2nd half and he is a relatively young QB in a new offense.  You could say he is "trending" towards top 10 play in these particular categories (ones that were once, and still by some, considered weaknesses).  I like that it was a majority of the season and there is a clear indicator of before and after his benching.  His saving grace in the Philly game was both offenses played like crap and he nearly had that GWD against the champs.  Honestly his worst game post benching was the Cowboys game.  I can't believe no one is talking about that.  Coker bailed him on a busted coverage for like 83 yards and a TD (again where the box score doesn't tell the whole story), but outside of that it was awful.  I think we were a new offense that just struggled on the road more than not, even towards the end minus the Falcons game.  That's why that last road win was so important IMO.  

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

re: PFF having Bryce Young as the best deep passer in week 12

Link to original article

Excerpt from the article:

PFF's passing-by-depth report for week 12

NFL Pro's Film Room

Play 1 - Completion to XL running a deep crosser despite multiple penalties by KC on the play

 

Play 2 - Completion to JT with the pass rush closing in

 

Play 3 - Hits David Moore in the hands while taking a shot from new Panthers' DL Ter'shawn Wharton for what would've been a TD

 

Play 4 - This is the first play that folks could attempt to pin on Bryce if not for one detail... this was 3rd & 10 with 9sec left in Q2 (as seen in the screenshot showing the list of plays). Bryce had to air mail it out of the back of the end zone so that there was still time to attempt a field goal before halftime.

 

Play 5 - Bryce places this ball where only David Moore can get it (spoiler: Moore does not get it). I've included the other angle as I was confident that some would try to hyperfocus on this play as why PFF was wrong in their evaluation. It's worth noting though that this wasn't a drop

 

 

Play 6 - Sideline shot to XL but he drops it. Again, both angles included to avoid bad faith misrepresentation.

 

 

I think that clearly shows its a flawed method

[ForJimmy]

7 minutes ago, frankw said:

Well that's the problem. That portion of games was when our playoff hopes were either teetering on the edge at best or we were eliminated altogether. We need to see Bryce Young perform like that when the pressure is on. That is what defines a franchise QB.

Can't really get behind this.  The NFL is too competitive of a league with jobs constantly on the line.  A lot of the teams we played that 2nd half were play off teams and playing for seeding as well.  

I can meet you in the middle and say he needs to show consistency over the entire season to be a legit franchise QB.  Same offense, same OL, and most of the same weapons should be in his favor this year.  Also next year's QB class looks strong, so the pressure should be on.  

[Icege]

7 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I think that clearly shows its a flawed method

You also think that lead paint chips should be called wall candy. So, respectfully, that's not moving the needle here.

There needs to be a little more than, "I don't like it" to dismiss the entire methodology.

Edited 4 hours ago by Icege

[mrcompletely11]

6 minutes ago, Icege said:

You also think that lead paint chips should be called wall candy. So, respectfully, that's not moving the needle here.

There needs to be a little more than, "I don't like it" to dismiss the entire methodology.

Calling somebody that is 2 of 6 on what they consider deep balls the best passer of the week is fuging insane.  IE its a flawed method especially looking over that list

Edited 4 hours ago by mrcompletely11

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, Icege said:

You also think that lead paint chips should be called wall candy. So, respectfully, that's not moving the needle here.

There needs to be a little more than, "I don't like it" to dismiss the entire methodology.

I don't dismiss PFF entirely.  I just think if PFF is frankly 99% of an argument made that Bryce Young was top 10 post benching......and it runs counter too all the other metrics we use, eyeball test, etc.   That it's not the best argument to make. 

I see no reason for people to feel the need to argue BY is was top 10 or even project that expectation on him this year.  But it's that time of year.....time of year we folks are willing to pretend Ben McAdoo actually is a sneaky great hire or whatever it is we do here. 

[frankw]

19 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Can't really get behind this.  The NFL is too competitive of a league with jobs constantly on the line.  A lot of the teams we played that 2nd half were play off teams and playing for seeding as well.  

I can meet you in the middle and say he needs to show consistency over the entire season to be a legit franchise QB.  Same offense, same OL, and most of the same weapons should be in his favor this year.  Also next year's QB class looks strong, so the pressure should be on.  

Right but I'm not talking about other teams I'm talking about the Carolina Panthers who are heading into 8 consecutive years of losing seasons.

We can argue about stats advanced metrics and expectations until we're blue in the face. Winning when the playoffs are on the line is a very key goal for any starting QB in the NFL.

And not for nothing but let's keep it real here. We hung our hats on the Packers game in his rookie season after weeks of either poor or mediocre QB play. And now we're doing the same with his sophomore season albeit with a little larger sample size. But still picking and choosing what to judge just leads to an echo chamber on either side of the debate. We should all be able to meet at a consensus that competing passing the eye test and winning some games convincingly early in the season is realistically the goal for our #1 pick heading into year 3.

[CPF4LIFE]

1 hour ago, ForJimmy said:

PFF made it up just to make Bryce look better. Crazy right?

Also I can’t believe you said he played “better.” Careful and you might let a compliment slip…. (kidding)

I think its funny how a lot of yall still haven't grasped the reality of just how bad bryce was prior to the benching. So that means that just bout anything that wasn't a complete disaster was an improvement from him on the surface. That also qualifies as better at the end of the day. This is a low bar here. 

Edited 3 hours ago by CPF4LIFE

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, frankw said:

Right but I'm not talking about other teams I'm talking about the Carolina Panthers who are heading into 8 consecutive years of losing seasons.

We can argue about stats advanced metrics and expectations until we're blue in the face. Winning when the playoffs are on the line is a very key goal for any starting QB in the NFL.

And not for nothing but let's keep it real here. We hung our hats on the Packers game in his rookie season after weeks of either poor or mediocre QB play. And now we're doing the same with his sophomore season albeit with a little larger sample size. But still picking and choosing what to judge just leads to an echo chamber on either side of the debate. We should all be able to meet at a consensus that competing passing the eye test and winning some games convincingly early in the season is realistically the goal for our #1 pick heading into year 3.

The teams this 2nd year player (can’t really blame the years before he was drafted on him) was playing were going 100% as most do most weeks in the NFL. The whole argument is about his play during that period and how well was he actually playing.

I’m with you on the winning though. Just start winning and fans will get excited. Start getting in the playoffs and winning and we won’t care how his PFF or box score stats look. 200 yards a game to 400 yards a game, start scoring and winning playoffs games and 99% of fans will buy in. 

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, CPF4LIFE said:

I think its funny how a lot of yall still haven't grasped the reality of just how bad bryce was prior to the benching. So that means that just bout anything that wasn't a complete disaster was an improvement from him on the surface. That also qualifies as better at the end of the day. This is a low bar here. 

Yes everyone has acknowledged he was very bad lol. If you want to take the “kidding” part of my post and run with it, that just shows where you are at right now. I even labeled it as “kidding” so you wouldn’t take it literally…

[Donald LaFell]

I’d love for Bryce to do well but I’m still cautiously or even skeptically optimistic. He looked terrible and he’ll need to play very well in spite of his physical tools. Last year doesn’t count, a portion of last year definitely doesn’t count. Teams and players always look better when the pressure is off. 

[Navy_football]

I think the PFF's goal is to grade you as an individual. We all know that football is the ultimate team sport, and your success is dependent on at least one other person - usually several. Maybe it helps distinguish how well you did your job rather than the result, which you can't always control.