[Bootleg Football] You care a lot about the Panthers, you just don't know it yet.

[Luciu5]

This was an excellent watch. I can't believe I watched the whole thing.

[frankw]

4 hours ago, Icege said:

Brett: "Bryce Young was not the issue and anybody that says Bryce Young was the issue just wasn't paying attention to Carolina."

At what point in time is this statement referring to? Because both seasons there were glaring moments Bryce directly hurt the offense and the team regardless of the pieces around him. Statements like this only create more of the same back and forth interactions here. Bryce finally played up to the standards of an average starting QB and flashed some nice moments to finish the season last year. But there's still a ton of growth we need to see early and throughout the season in order to slam the door shut and declare him a franchise QB. That's all anyone needs to say.

[CRA]

5 hours ago, Icege said:

 

• The ability to establish the run (especially under center) with a QB that's really good at play action from under center due to his vision + processing allow him to see things quickly enough to make it work gave them an identity. Same reasons that made Brees and Goff successful.

Gruden was talking about that in his video the other day talking about how horrible ineffective we were at play action w/ Bryce. 

I still think Bryce is largely graded on a massive curve largely factoring in how horrific he was to start off his career.   And you are forced into deep stat dives to manufacture him being "good" last year.   He had a good game or two.  But he largely wasn't a good QB even in most games post benching.  

but to me, this is his year 2.  So what he was, was actually fine for a rookie season.  So it's not all Bryce bashing from me. 

[ThPantherFan]

6 hours ago, Icege said:

Summary (continued)

• Brett: "Bryce Young was not the issue and anybody that says Bryce Young was the issue just wasn't paying attention to Carolina."
• Heavy focus on outside zone in the run game (8th in the league, called 40% of the time)
  • 8th in man-blocking
  • Jab was outside zone, hook was man
  • 53.9% outside zone from under center
  • 32nd in outside zone in shotgun (didn't do it once, but were 5th in man-blocking)
• Run game wasn't simplistic as much as the team recognized who they were and what they were good at. They were out executing opponents in the run game. The offense didn't have an identity in 2023, but in 2024 they found it in being able to establish the run
• Coming out of the Bye they played against KC, TB, and PHI in back-to-back-to-back games. Yes, they lost all three but...
  • Lost to KC by a field goal
  • Lost to TB by a field goal
  • Gave Philly a game, lost 22 - 16 but the Eagles were scrapping to stay alive against Carolina
• "For those of you that are not Panthers fans, if you didn't watch Bryce Young last year, would it shock you to know that he was the 11th-highest rated QB in all of football under pressure in the entire league last year?"
  • Higher under pressure passer rating than Jordan Love, CJ Stroud, Jalen Hurts, and Patrick Mahomes. He was good under pressure last year
  • 4th in big-time throws under pressure only behind Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, and Joe Burrow
    • Didn't start the entire year but was still 4th in the league in that metric
  • He was legitimately a good starting QB last year after a rookie season where everything around him was so bad that it looked like he was wondering whether or not he could play football, but now we're seeing Bama Bryce
• When talking about the three game stretch Brett had, EJ reminds us: "Typically when you want to see a team climb out of the cellar, the progress comes in little bits. First thing is winning games against the teams you're 'supposed to beat.' Then beating teams in your division who you can really go head-to-head with and then maybe challenging those NFL elites. The Panthers kind of skipped those first two steps."
  • A lot of that was Bryce getting the team to believe in the pros like they had in college
• Canales did a good job of highlighting the Drew Brees-iness in Bryce Young's game (reading coverages and identifying opening spaces). A lot of the best offenses in the game today operate from under center and run play-action. QBs that can turn, give a hard fake, flip back, and make a split-second decision off of that limited info it's a super power. Bryce's super power isn't his arm or his legs, but his vision and processing.
  • 12th overall in under center rate
  • 30th overall in motion at the snap (don't want that going while the QBs eyes are turned)
  • 10th most passes from under center were play-action (91%)
• The ability to establish the run (especially under center) with a QB that's really good at play action from under center due to his vision + processing allow him to see things quickly enough to make it work gave them an identity. Same reasons that made Brees and Goff successful.
  • Expecting them to steal from Ben Johnson's offense because everything Goff does well, Bryce does well
• Coaching staffs aligning with their player strengths doesn't happen nearly as often as we think even at the NFL level, but that seems to be what's happening in Carolina. They went back and built Bryce back up and that has established the relationship that the offense is going to built on going further.

 

Next section is going into the front office + coaching staff. Got to handle a couple of things for work and then continuing the summary/summaries!

I love it!  Thanks.

 

[Icege]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

Gruden was talking about that in his video the other day talking about how horrible ineffective we were at play action w/ Bryce. 

I still think Bryce is largely graded on a massive curve largely factoring in how horrific he was to start off his career.   And you are forced into deep stat dives to manufacture him being "good" last year.   He had a good game or two.  But he largely wasn't a good QB even in most games post benching.  

but to me, this is his year 2.  So what he was, was actually fine for a rookie season.  So it's not all Bryce bashing from me. 

You've also been vocal about shortcomings in other areas of the team (ie: the defense) without circling it back to Bryce.

I think that what you and others are looking for are a game where Bryce statistically takes over in order to show that despite his size he is going to be the hero that fans hope a #1 overall selection can be. In my opinion, he started to show that on film last season after the year before being buried under... well... everything. However, "Watch the tape" doesn't exactly win any social media, sports bar, or message board arguments. Being able to point at a 5 TD, 300+ yard passing game with no turnovers against a championship-caliber team would get even get the attention of the most die hard Stroud Boys.

I'm excited to see how the offense evolves this season. We've got some physical playmakers on the outside now that can also big boy DBs in the run game. Shoot... 11 personnel with Tremble + Coker on the field might be just as effective to run out of as it'll be with 12 personnel. Hell, we might also be looking at one of the more complete WR rooms the team has had in its history if TMac + XL put it together. Add Coker + Horn Jr to the mix? Can I get an "ooh wee mayne?"

As much as I want to believe that the defense is going to look drastically better... The LB room scares me. With Mike Jackson Sr and CSW showing out well in camp and the potential UDFA gem in Corey Thornton who's done well vs TMac, I'm resting a little easier with the DB room (would still like to see another safety signed but they had better be starting Richardson or Ransom over Nick Scott!).

Special teams-wise... I'm expecting even more improvement as the floor for this team's depth goes up. Terrified of depending on a kicker to win, but that can also be addressed next offseason when this team (on the spreadsheets, at least) is set to compete or start over.

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, Icege said:

You've also been vocal about shortcomings in other areas of the team (ie: the defense) without circling it back to Bryce.

I think that what you and others are looking for are a game where Bryce statistically takes over in order to show that despite his size he is going to be the hero that fans hope a #1 overall selection can be. In my opinion, he started to show that on film last season after the year before being buried under... well... everything. However, "Watch the tape" doesn't exactly win any social media, sports bar, or message board arguments. Being able to point at a 5 TD, 300+ yard passing game with no turnovers against a championship-caliber team would get even get the attention of the most die hard Stroud Boys.

I'm excited to see how the offense evolves this season. We've got some physical playmakers on the outside now that can also big boy DBs in the run game. Shoot... 11 personnel with Tremble + Coker on the field might be just as effective to run out of as it'll be with 12 personnel. Hell, we might also be looking at one of the more complete WR rooms the team has had in its history if TMac + XL put it together. Add Coker + Horn Jr to the mix? Can I get an "ooh wee mayne?"

As much as I want to believe that the defense is going to look drastically better... The LB room scares me. With Mike Jackson Sr and CSW showing out well in camp and the potential UDFA gem in Corey Thornton who's done well vs TMac, I'm resting a little easier with the DB room (would still like to see another safety signed but they had better be starting Richardson or Ransom over Nick Scott!).

Special teams-wise... I'm expecting even more improvement as the floor for this team's depth goes up. Terrified of depending on a kicker to win, but that can also be addressed next offseason when this team (on the spreadsheets, at least) is set to compete or start over.

I think the D is going be bottom 3rd.  And that's ok.  We can make decent strides and that still be the end result.  Need time there and a group to emerge.  D isn't like O where one player can drastically alter it like a QB could the O. 

I think Bryce's biggest issue won't really be a Bryce issue.  And it's really one I already apply.  It's his draft position and cost.  He won't live up to it.  Which is basically an impossible bar/task.   So Bryce is always sort of going to catch shade that really belongs on a FO.  

when we drafted Bryce, I thought he had the highest floor but lowest ceiling.  Eye ball test?  That's probably right.  Might of just had Stroud's floor wrong in it.  Maybe that was more equal.  I think Bryce can be be a reliable mid level starter.  But nothing with the eyeball test really says much more than that at this level for me.  He does have some underrated wiggle legs but hard to get too excited about that given he is also the smallest QB we have seen in some time. 

Can you have success w/ that type QB? Sure.  Finding a Mahomes isn't the only way. But you need a well rounded team for them.....and I'm not sure our defense is really going to align with where Bryce will need it for success before a decision has to be made on him.  

 

 

[frankw]

I've skimmed and laughed at quite a few gameday threads here over the years and certainly over the last several years mainly for laughs. Where more often than not we've been steaming dogshit. And while people have and will continue to gripe loudly about numerous areas of the team that fail especially the defense. Ultimately it's always going to circle back to the starting QB. The team goes as the QB goes. It's the most consequential position. The fragility some display over this is unnecessary.

[amcoolio]

48 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think the D is going be bottom 3rd.  And that's ok.  We can make decent strides and that still be the end result.  Need time there and a group to emerge.  D isn't like O where one player can drastically alter it like a QB could the O. 

I think Bryce's biggest issue won't really be a Bryce issue.  And it's really one I already apply.  It's his draft position and cost.  He won't live up to it.  Which is basically an impossible bar/task.   So Bryce is always sort of going to catch shade that really belongs on a FO.  

when we drafted Bryce, I thought he had the highest floor but lowest ceiling.  Eye ball test?  That's probably right.  Might of just had Stroud's floor wrong in it.  Maybe that was more equal.  I think Bryce can be be a reliable mid level starter.  But nothing with the eyeball test really says much more than that at this level for me.  He does have some underrated wiggle legs but hard to get too excited about that given he is also the smallest QB we have seen in some time. 

Can you have success w/ that type QB? Sure.  Finding a Mahomes isn't the only way. But you need a well rounded team for them.....and I'm not sure our defense is really going to align with where Bryce will need it for success before a decision has to be made on him.  

 

 

I think its disingenuous to say that you know what Bryce is going to be. There is no way of knowing what Bryce (or any young QB) will be at this point. Goff was a massive bust that turned it around, as did Mayfield. Look at the massive drop off of Stroud from years 1 to 2. Richardson and Levis might not be in the league past this year and several people here were clamoring to take them. Caleb Williams is playing lost in camp again this year and was viewed as a generational prospect, and now Arch Manning might not even start.

I think, in both the NBA and NFL, that college has completely stopped developing their kids and that has created a void of unpredictability in the draft over the past 5 years, and its only going to continue to get worse. College sports have completely eroded in the past decade, to the point where it might be better for the kids to go professional overseas or just not even play and train at sports academies before hitting the big leagues.

I do know that Bryce flashed quite a bit of high-end QB traits in the 2nd half of 2024, so to say he will never be a star is kinda silly right now, there are probably outcomes where he actually does live up to his trade cost.

[Basbear]

 

Iceage, Capt mo, Juan of months, Kung Fu, John snow and few others(forgive me soldiers) are trying their hardest to give teh dying huddle life. 

 

Going to miss all of you.

[frankw]

39 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

I think its disingenuous to say that you know what Bryce is going to be. There is no way of knowing what Bryce (or any young QB) will be at this point. Goff was a massive bust that turned it around

One minute this place says Goff is trash the next minute he's elite again and suddenly he was a massive bust from the jump

In his first full season as a starter Goff threw for 3800 yards (10th in the league) averaged 8 yards a pass (7th in the league) 28 touchdowns (5th in the league) and 7 ints. That's 200 passing yards shy of Cam's rookie of the year season with more touchdowns and 10 less turnovers. The lengths some folks will go to shine up a terrible to mediocre resume for our own QB are simply hysterical.

[jb2288]

8 hours ago, Icege said:

Summary (continued)

• Brett: "Bryce Young was not the issue and anybody that says Bryce Young was the issue just wasn't paying attention to Carolina." 

So half the huddle lol

[jb2288]

13 minutes ago, frankw said:

One minute this place says Goff is trash the next minute he's elite again and suddenly he was a massive bust from the jump

In his first full season as a starter Goff threw for 3800 yards (10th in the league) averaged 8 yards a pass (7th in the league) 28 touchdowns (5th in the league) and 7 ints. That's 200 passing yards shy of Cam's rookie of the year season with more touchdowns and 10 less turnovers. The lengths some folks will go to shine up a terrible to mediocre resume for our own QB are simply hysterical.

Kinda a weird gerrymander of an argument you’re trying to do here. Goff started as the backup his first season (something Bryce did not get) and in the 7 games he started he lost them all, with more int than TD, and a 48 QBR. So yeah you’re right, ppl who call a QB a bust after 1 season with a horrible coaching staff usually look foolish in the long run. It’s almost like the situation you walk into highly matters, even for #1 picks. 

[CRA]

1 hour ago, amcoolio said:

I think its disingenuous to say that you know what Bryce is going to be. There is no way of knowing what Bryce (or any young QB) will be at this point. Goff was a massive bust that turned it around, as did Mayfield. Look at the massive drop off of Stroud from years 1 to 2. Richardson and Levis might not be in the league past this year and several people here were clamoring to take them. Caleb Williams is playing lost in camp again this year and was viewed as a generational prospect, and now Arch Manning might not even start.

I think, in both the NBA and NFL, that college has completely stopped developing their kids and that has created a void of unpredictability in the draft over the past 5 years, and its only going to continue to get worse. College sports have completely eroded in the past decade, to the point where it might be better for the kids to go professional overseas or just not even play and train at sports academies before hitting the big leagues.

I do know that Bryce flashed quite a bit of high-end QB traits in the 2nd half of 2024, so to say he will never be a star is kinda silly right now, there are probably outcomes where he actually does live up to his trade cost.

I’ll concede I can’t literally see into the future….

I don’t think it’s disingenuous to give my outlook on Bryce….and use his play, physical tools, etc as the reasoning for such outlook.  Bryce Young is 100% a unicorn in terms of the tools he brings to the table as a NFL QB…..and not to the positive side of the spectrum.  Which makes the gamble on him insanely high if we are being honest about it IMO (factoring in what we did with that pick).  

and I think Goff and Baker are bad comps to what is going in here.   Don’t really see them as similar outside of just using Goff’s rookie year and ignoring the rest.  That’s fairly similar.  

[frankw]

3 minutes ago, jb2288 said:

Kinda a weird gerrymander of an argument you’re trying to do here. Goff started as the backup his first season (something Bryce did not get) and in the 7 games he started he lost them all, with more int than TD, and a 48 QBR. So yeah you’re right, ppl who call a QB a bust after 1 season with a horrible coaching staff usually look foolish in the long run. It’s almost like the situation you walk into highly matters, even for #1 picks. 

Oh man don't even give me this revisionist history. So many people dunked on others predraft all but declaring Bryce was so good and generational and head and shoulders far away the best prospect in the draft that we would be able to compete right away and wouldn't need to sink the salary cap and multiple more first round picks into surrounding him with talent. 3 years later we are top 5 in the league in salary cap allocation to the offensive line and we've invested 2 first round picks in WR one of them an 8th overall for the first time in franchise history.

Goff threw for all those yards and touchdowns and go look at his WR room that year. Not a single 1k WR. Even Cupp didn't even crack 900 yards.

We can hope Bryce becomes a franchise QB without this foolishness to try and shoehorn him into a conversation he doesn't yet belong in. I certainly hope to see him earn that this season. But I don't have to contort myself into a pretzel to make him appear something that he is not yet currently. It's that straightforward.