Bryce's Achilles Heel Is Not What You Think It Is

[strato]

8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That's really what people are seeing with the arm strength issues. He has below average NFL arm strength but it's not Chad Pennington-esque. He still just struggles keeping a good base when he is throwing the ball. His fundamentals are still a work in progress and when the pocket breaks down or his internal clock goes off, back to bad habits. 

As you said, he isn't athletic enough to consistentlu hurt people with his feet so he has to get better about keeping his mechanics tight on a consistent basis. He doesn't have elite Cam/Allen/Mahomes/Jackson/etc arm abilities to rely on when his base isn't set. 

And this is his third year. As far as people not understanding things, I am not sure people accept how difficult it is to remake yourself from the ground up. Which he absolutely has to do to compete successfully at the NFL level. 
He takes a step forward with the footwork and a step back when he is stressed and reverts to what always worked for him before.

I will say it yet again, anyone that reached a level of success with their self taught technique but needed to rebuild to break through the limitations that imposed, will understand this. I don’t care what specific activity it is the same challenge. Muscle memory and comfort level fight against the new moves you are trying to train yourself to do without thinking. 

He is there. There is a ceiling with his technique that is too low for the NFL. He has to retrain himself. 

We are in the third year and I guess we are supposed believe that he will be so good  when he finally gets to where the new will be second nature, that we have to wait (how many more years) for him to finish doing it. If he ever finishes. 
The sad fact is he will not succeed at the NFL level with his horrible college footwork and compensation moves like the tippy toe drop backs. He just won’t. 

If he can’t put that on the table for us, we would be foolish to not seek an alternative plan. 

[Bear Hands]

28 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That's really what people are seeing with the arm strength issues. He has below average NFL arm strength but it's not Chad Pennington-esque. He still just struggles keeping a good base when he is throwing the ball. His fundamentals are still a work in progress and when the pocket breaks down or his internal clock goes off, back to bad habits. 

As you said, he isn't athletic enough to consistentlu hurt people with his feet so he has to get better about keeping his mechanics tight on a consistent basis. He doesn't have elite Cam/Allen/Mahomes/Jackson/etc arm abilities to rely on when his base isn't set. 

Yep, pretty much this.  

The velocity gets lost when his mechanics slip into those habits.  His shotgun "skip-hop" started fading a bit by year's end.  This year, it was a high percent again to start, but last game, he was much more fundamentally in check.  

He played like that for so long, it's second nature that he's trying to shake out.  I personally think he can be better than, let's say Kyler (BY being more clutch, less arm strength & tighter frame) if he can just understand what he needs to do to give himself that leverage in the pocket more.  

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, strato said:

And this is his third year. As far as people not understanding things, I am not sure people accept how difficult it is to remake yourself from the ground up. Which he absolutely has to do to compete successfully at the NFL level. 
He takes a step forward with the footwork and a step back when he is stressed and reverts to what always worked for him before.

I will say it yet again, anyone that reached a level of success with their self taught technique but needed to rebuild to break through the limitations that imposed, will understand this. I don’t care what specific activity it is the same challenge. Muscle memory and comfort level fight against the new moves you are trying to train yourself to do without thinking. 

He is there. There is a ceiling with his technique that is too low for the NFL. He has to retrain himself. 

We are in the third year and I guess we are supposed believe that he will be so good  when he finally gets to where the new will be second nature, that we have to wait (how many more years) for him to finish doing it. If he ever finishes. 
The sad fact is he will not succeed at the NFL level with his horrible college footwork and compensation moves like the tippy toe drop backs. He just won’t. 

If he can’t put that on the table for us, we would be foolish to not seek an alternative plan. 

The most infuriating part is that it didn't appear to be something that was even attempted to be addressed(footwork) until last season. He also had what I considered a big red flag that first offseason which was the interview in which he stated something along the lines of that he basically kept his offseason pretty football free. I didn't like that. 

3 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Yep, pretty much this.  

The velocity gets lost when his mechanics slip into those habits.  His shotgun "skip-hop" started fading a bit by year's end.  This year, it was a high percent again to start, but last game, he was much more fundamentally in check.  

He played like that for so long, it's second nature that he's trying to shake out.  I personally think he can be better than Kyler (BY being more clutch, less power) if he can just understand what he needs to do to give himself that leverage in the pocket more.  

Kyler has better tools and is a tremendous athlete in comparison. I mostly question Kyler between the ears. He is another guy that I am not completely sure loves football.

[Bear Hands]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

Kyler has better tools and is a tremendous athlete in comparison. I mostly question Kyler between the ears. He is another guy that I am not completely sure loves football.

Totally.  I'm less comparing them as players and using him as a reference point.  I legitimately think Bryce is capable of being a better NFL QB than Kyler has been.  Kyler has no clutch gene and doesn't seem to have a grip on the locker room, or much love for the game.  Much different body types/strengths and weaknesses.  

Crazy to think-- but Kyler is at year 7 as a 1.01...38-48-1 on his career, 0-1 in the playoffs.

He's somehow played well enough to keep it going but crazy to think he's barely even touched the playoffs.  Hasn't done anything that special for the Cards. 

That's what you don't want to be stuck in.  Cardinals are in softball purgatory with him.    

[strato]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The most infuriating part is that it didn't appear to be something that was even attempted to be addressed(footwork) until last season. He also had what I considered a big red flag that first offseason which was the interview in which he stated something along the lines of that he basically kept his offseason pretty football free. I didn't like that. 

Remember right before Frank was fired when his footwork issues became a point of contention with Tepper? 
Tepper wanted the footwork fixed immediately. This week. Lol. 
Frank told him it wasn’t an in season project. In so many words. That it would have to be done in the offseason. 
Frank knew what he was seeing, I mean come on. He played quarterback his whole life and coached them. He knew what kind of project Bryce was. 
And it is like the 7 on 7 success we hear about, that’s great unless you vacant repeat it when people are trying to hit you.

Meaning there is only so much you can do in the offseason. You can drill and drill and drill some more but it will not get put to the real test until you get out on the field in live league games. 
 

As to the offseason relaxing and all, I am a perfectionist by nature. I see what is deficient and want it addressed. 
I had the same issue with Cam over his mechanics and what he did in the offseason.
 

The difference is, with Cam it kept him from being, I’m my view, truly one of the all time greats. He was just plain great. So he could get by just fine on his God given physical tools and competitive spirit  

With Bryce it is the difference with being out of the league or being a viable NFL QB. I mean for him it threatens his career. There is no getting by on immense natural ability to fall back on. 

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, Bear Hands said:

Totally.  I'm less comparing them as players and using him as a reference point.  I legitimately think Bryce is capable of being a better NFL QB than Kyler has been.  Kyler has no clutch gene and doesn't seem to have a grip on the locker room, or much love for the game.  Much different body types/strengths and weaknesses.  

Crazy to think-- but Kyler is at year 7 as a 1.01...38-48-1 on his career, 0-1 in the playoffs.

He's somehow played well enough to keep it going but crazy to think he's barely even touched the playoffs.  Hasn't done anything that special for the Cards. 

That's what you don't want to be stuck in.  Cardinals are in softball purgatory with him.    

Yeah and another guy on a mega deal. 

I think the thing that is getting all these franchises twisted up is the fear of having to search for a new QB again. Ultimately, if you end up with a Kyler Murray, Trevor Lawrence, Deshaun Watson, etc....now you have a franchise killer. A guy that will draw insane resources while never developing into a QB capable of leading a team to a championship. 

That's the big danger with Bryce. I am fine attempting to extend him on a 2-3 year "prove it" deal for maybe $20-25 mil AAV with a lot of performance based incentives and a painless early out. But, he isn't likely to accept an offer like that. I would think he is likely to want a mega offer, as is his right as an NFL QB to ask for. 

I would prefer we just simply move on if he doesn't show he is a franchise caliber QB this season. Seems like every offseason there are ample options in terms of distressed assets, older journeyman QB's and former starters that can spell us while we build a capable team that might not need a superstar QB to be a competitor.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, strato said:

Remember right before Frank was fired when his footwork issues became a point of contention with Tepper? 
Tepper wanted the footwork fixed immediately. This week. Lol. 
Frank told him it wasn’t an in season project. In so many words. That it would have to be done in the offseason. 
Frank knew what he was seeing, I mean come on. He played quarterback his whole life and coached them. He knew what kind of project Bryce was. 
And it is like the 7 on 7 success we hear about, that’s great unless you vacant repeat it when people are trying to hit you.

Meaning there is only so much you can do in the offseason. You can drill and drill and drill some more but it will not get put to the real test until you get out on the field in live league games. 
 

As to the offseason relaxing and all, I am a perfectionist by nature. I see what is deficient and want it addressed. 
I had the same issue with Cam over his mechanics and what he did in the offseason.
 

The difference is, with Cam it kept him from being, I’m my view, truly one of the all time greats. He was just plain great. So he could get by just fine on his God given physical tools and competitive spirit  

With Bryce it is the difference with being out of the league or being a viable NFL QB. I mean for him it threatens his career. There is no getting by on immense natural ability to fall back on. 

Yep. I do remember that indeed. He was right. We are in year three and it's still a work in progress. I will say he has definitely cured me of wanting to draft another QB that is lacking in basic fundamentals. That's the biggest red flag of all. 

I think Bryce wants to be an NFL player but I do question if he has the drive to be great. 

[strato]

I don’t think he can be great. For me he tops out as starter maybe make the playoffs, stuff like that. I would have been okay with that kind of player as a placeholder but you don’t invest the time and assets we did and be happy with that. 

On the cure,If a guy has mechanical flaws but otherwise is enticing, you let someone else make the mistake of taking him in the top of the 1st.
If he doesn’t get taken you can pick him up 2nd or 3rd day and try to develop him (off the bench not starting). 
The risk/reward with Bryce was horribly misjudged. I didn’t want to trade like that in the first place because I didn’t see the generation talent that justifies that type of move, but once it was done CJ was the better gamble. No doubt. 

Edited 2 hours ago by strato

[OldhamA]

43 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah and another guy on a mega deal. 

I think the thing that is getting all these franchises twisted up is the fear of having to search for a new QB again. Ultimately, if you end up with a Kyler Murray, Trevor Lawrence, Deshaun Watson, etc....now you have a franchise killer. A guy that will draw insane resources while never developing into a QB capable of leading a team to a championship. 

That's the big danger with Bryce. I am fine attempting to extend him on a 2-3 year "prove it" deal for maybe $20-25 mil AAV with a lot of performance based incentives and a painless early out. But, he isn't likely to accept an offer like that. I would think he is likely to want a mega offer, as is his right as an NFL QB to ask for. 

I would prefer we just simply move on if he doesn't show he is a franchise caliber QB this season. Seems like every offseason there are ample options in terms of distressed assets, older journeyman QB's and former starters that can spell us while we build a capable team that might not need a superstar QB to be a competitor.

And I'm fine with cutting him tomorrow.

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

And I'm fine with cutting him tomorrow.

Not realistic but I understand the sentiment. I would have already been shopping him around the league to gauge interest and see what the returns might be if I were Dan.

I think it's going to be a situation that the franchise needs to save face and offloading him is going to be seen as a sign of defeat. Not saying it will end up that way but I can see it happening.

[strato]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Not realistic but I understand the sentiment. I would have already been shopping him around the league to gauge interest and see what the returns might be if I were Dan.

I think it's going to be a situation that the franchise needs to save face and offloading him is going to be seen as a sign of defeat. Not saying it will end up that way but I can see it happening.

That’s what firing Frank was. That’s what the last two years have been. That whole process of him ending up here was a bad decision compounded by another. 

In a vacuum trading those assets is defendable. But not that year. It was born of impatience. 

But we have taken it this far, may as well see if he can reverse his trajectory the remaining games. Like in the Dumb and Dumber movie, there is a chance. 

[Cpt slay a ho]

3 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

The sideline throw to Horn last Sunday would have been a TD if horn didn't have to almost completely stop on his route to catch it. Its not soley based off the fact  that the ball got there, its the fact that receivers have to constantly adjust on routes to make these catches. He has also made other similar throws this season already. You are either blind to it or not truly paying attention to what you are watching.

In all fairness didn’t he get creamed right when he was throwing ? 

there’s other examples just this one he deserves a pass because of the hit he took right before releasing the pass