Young nominated again...

[tukafan21]

18 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

I didn't say average. Its that they are more likely to be sub 200 than 300+ yard games. 

Except you literally didn't say that, all you said was 200 or less was the norm this year, lol (although I'd also argue using the word "norm" is pretty equivalent to saying "average")

The discussion at hand was "is 206 yards an underachieving game or not"

Just because this year is likely to see more sub 200 yard games than 300+ yard games, doesn't make 206 yards an over achieving or even acceptable yardage total.

(and totally as an aside, since this is more of a generic discussion right now, but at the same time, 206 yards being the 3rd highest total of the season is not acceptable for a QB in their 3rd season and supposed to be a long term solution)

Edited 17 hours ago by tukafan21

[Jon Snow]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

Except you literally didn't say that, all you said was 200 or less was the norm this year, lol.

The discussion at hand was "is 206 yards an underachieving game or not"

Just because this year is likely to see more sub 200 yard games than 300+ yard games, doesn't make 206 yards an over achieving or even acceptable yardage total.

(and totally as an aside, since this is more of a generic discussion right now, but at the same time, 206 yards being the 3rd highest total of the season is not acceptable for a QB in their 3rd season and supposed to be a long term solution)

I thought that was obvious and didn't need to be said. You are fixated on the wrong things. The yards are not the problem. They are a symptom of a larger problem. He obviously is capable of putting up over 400 yards in a game. Its this issue of his mental game that's interfering with his overall consistency. 

[Shotgun]

3 hours ago, TN05 said:

I’ve never seen a group of fans so unhappy to be winning

Don't know any eagles fans?

[Mr. Scot]

3 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

But we're not talking about someone's role or importance to a team, that's an entirely different conversation.  In general, when you're just talking about building a roster or how a team looks, or anything along those lines, then I 100% agree with you.

But this is for the Air and Ground Player of the Week.

To me, I've always interpreted that as who had the best passing/rushing/recieving performances of the week, completely separate and irrelevant to a team's success/failure in that week.

I wouldn't take the same issue with it if someone said he should be nominated for Offensive Player of the Week, that would be an award where the things you're talking about should be factored in.  I just feel this is not that type of weekly award where role or team outcome has any factor in it, and it's who had the best statistical output that week.

We're talking about contribution to a particular game. There's more to that than stats.

Take for example a guy with superior stats vs a guy with lower stats playing his way through an injury or a hardship. In that scenario, I'm gonna vote for the latter guy ten times out of ten.

[tukafan21]

21 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

I thought that was obvious and didn't need to be said. You are fixated on the wrong things. The yards are not the problem. They are a symptom of a larger problem. He obviously is capable of putting up over 400 yards in a game. Its this issue of his mental game that's interfering with his overall consistency. 

Honestly, the lack of yards and the mental inconsistency aren't even my biggest problems with him.

It always has and always will be his lack of an ability to drive the ball as required on this level.  He can't throw from one hash to the opposite sideline 20 yards downfield on a line drive.  That's a 40ish yard air travel throw and the only way he's able to make it is with a touch throw.

Which in turn is from a lack of overall arm strength, which also rears its ugly head on off base/balance throws.  And it's not even that he's bad when throwing on the move, he's actually pretty good at it, but he NEEDS to get back into a perfectly balanced position on the throw or else he doesn't have the arm strength to get it where it needs to be.  

In this day and age, you need QB's who can make off balance throws that don't come up 5 yards short of the reciever every single time. 

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

We're talking about contribution to a particular game. There's more to that than stats.

Take for example a guy with superior stats vs a guy with lower stats playing his way through an injury or a hardship. In that scenario, I'm gonna vote for the latter guy ten times out of ten.

If you're talking about just the NFL's Offensive Player of the Week, then sure, I'd agree.

But for me, and maybe that's the problem and it's how I've interpreted this award, it's more about a statistical excellence than overall impact on the game.

[Jon Snow]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

Honestly, the lack of yards and the mental inconsistency aren't even my biggest problems with him.

It always has and always will be his lack of an ability to drive the ball as required on this level.  He can't throw from one hash to the opposite sideline 20 yards downfield on a line drive.  That's a 40ish yard air travel throw and the only way he's able to make it is with a touch throw.

Which in turn is from a lack of overall arm strength, which also rears its ugly head on off base/balance throws.  And it's not even that he's bad when throwing on the move, he's actually pretty good at it, but he NEEDS to get back into a perfectly balanced position on the throw or else he doesn't have the arm strength to get it where it needs to be.  

In this day and age, you need QB's who can make off balance throws that don't come up 5 yards short of the reciever every single time. 

How many times a game are you required to make that throw? Seriously? 

[jb2288]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

This is some weird mental gymnastics you're trying to do here by now twisting it into extrapolating one game's stats out for a full season.  Especially since your post that I was responding to never mentioned TD's, you simply said that 206 yards wouldn't be a bad passing game in today's NFL.

I'm not extrapolating anything out to a full season, I was responding specifically to you saying in today's NFL, 206 passing yards isn't an underachieving stat line.

So unless you don't think being 20th in something out of 32 would be "underachieving", all I did was point out how the facts of today's NFL season contradict what you said.  That throwing for 206 yards in a game is clearly an underachieving stat line for today's NFL.

And if your next argument is going to be "well you're looking at season long passing averages and comparing that to one game", then that also just hurts your argument.  As if you're trying to say a one game performance is deserving of winning an award, then it should fall in the upper levels of the season long averages, not the bottom.

Thank you. I’m glad you agree. 

[cranky]

26 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Honestly, the lack of yards and the mental inconsistency aren't even my biggest problems with him.

It always has and always will be his lack of an ability to drive the ball as required on this level.  He can't throw from one hash to the opposite sideline 20 yards downfield on a line drive.  That's a 40ish yard air travel throw and the only way he's able to make it is with a touch throw.

Which in turn is from a lack of overall arm strength, which also rears its ugly head on off base/balance throws.  And it's not even that he's bad when throwing on the move, he's actually pretty good at it, but he NEEDS to get back into a perfectly balanced position on the throw or else he doesn't have the arm strength to get it where it needs to be.  

In this day and age, you need QB's who can make off balance throws that don't come up 5 yards short of the reciever every single time. 

JaMarcus Russell could drive it 20 yards easily but that didn't make him a good QB.

 

[MasterAwesome]

3 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I don't think he's worthy of being nominated for the award this week, even with those very broken down stats.  He had a great statistical game, I'm not saying he didn't, I just see how it was a Top 6 statistical performance this week.

Brown's 10 receptions for 132 Yards and 2 TDs is so much better than anything Bryce put out there statistically today.

It also means you're giving more credit to the "3 TDs of 30+ yards" than Mahomes throwing for 25% more yards and an extra TD, which is something else I'd disagree on, if you need to break down how long a TD pass was to give reasoning as to why lesser stats were actually better than someone else's, then I think you're hurting your own argument.

And yes, I know I've been a very vocal anti Bryce guy, but this has NOTHING to do with that.  I just view this as an award that is purely statistically based, and if anything, could (or maybe should) be done blind and only looking at box score output without knowing players or game outcomes.  And in that view, I don't see how Bryce had a game worthy of being nominated for the award this week, that there were at least 6 better purely statistical performances, that's all.

I agree with you that AJ Brown and Mahomes were deserving of being nominated. I just find it odd that among these 6 nominees, Bryce is the guy you’re singling out as undeserving? Are you that impressed with Swift and Achane’s ~130 yards and 1 TD? It’s a lot easier to do a 1 to 1 statistical comparison between a RB and WR than it is to compare a QB to a WR. So it’s basically 130 yards and 1 TD (Swift/Achane) against 130 yards and 2 TDs (Brown). That’s way more clear and egregious than trying to argue a QB’s 200 yards and 3 TDs is worse than a WR’s 130 yards and 2 TDs. My vote would be swapping in AJ Brown for Swift, if you consider that Swift’s 7th round back-up had basically an equal stat line. And if you want to replace someone else on this list with Mahomes, may I nominate the opposing QB who he faced and outperformed? Dak wasn’t even the best QB in his own stadium that day.  They were both very similar in yardage (if you include Mahomes’ 30 rush yards), but Mahomes had 4 TDs and 0 INTs to Dak’s 2 TDs and 1 INT.

And you’ve talked a lot about your understanding of this award being largely statistics-based. But you have neglected two key stats here: the first being QB Rating, which I believe Bryce led the league in this week (someone fact check me). I know QB Rating is a bit different than a traditional metric that you can objectively evaluate on its own, but it’s arguably the most valuable singular stat since it encompasses all those other key objective metrics in quantifying a QB’s overall performance via a structured formula. 

And the other key stat which appears to be quite significant in their criteria when doling out nominations? WIN VS LOSS. You’ll notice the only nominee here that was on a losing team was Bijan Robinson who had almost 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. That also explains why guys like AJ Brown and Mahomes didn’t get nominated. I went back and revisited the nominees each week going back to Week 9 and you see roughly the same pattern each week: vast majority of nominees from winning teams, and the rare nominee from a losing team having a HUGE statistical performance. Examples being Bowers and London after their ~120 yard 3 TD games, Brissett after his 450 yard game where I think he broke some kind of NFL record for completion percentage, and Jameis Winston last week when he had 400 yards and 3 TDs including a 33-yard touchdown RECEPTION. In fact, those are the only nominees on losing teams over the last 5 weeks (5 total, averaging 1 per week). Bijan Robinson had arguably the most lackluster stat line of all the losers, with only 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. So yeah apparently it takes quite a monster game for a loser to get nominated and Brown/Mahomes apparently didn’t meet that threshold.

[Mr. Scot]

15 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

If you're talking about just the NFL's Offensive Player of the Week, then sure, I'd agree.

But for me, and maybe that's the problem and it's how I've interpreted this award, it's more about a statistical excellence than overall impact on the game.

Here's the thing...

If you're looking to give out an award based strictly on the best statistical performance, why would you put it to a vote?

 If it were all about the stats, you'd just give the award to the guy with the best stats.

If you're asking people to vote on it though, then it can't really be just about the stats

Edited 1 hour ago by Mr. Scot

[Mr. Scot]

17 hours ago, jb2288 said:

QBs win MVP (year, month, week, whatever timeframe you want) all the time where it 100% should go to a RB, WR, CB, DE, etc. QBs with a hot week will always be discussed in these type of meaningless awards. You are seriously overanalyzing this. 

I've seen it suggested that there should be a "Most Valuable Quarterback" award and a separate "Most Valuable Player" trophy.

I don't really think that's ever going to happen, but there's definitely an argument to be made that it should. 

[Mr. Scot]

19 hours ago, WUnderhill said:

I was just making fun of the stat jockeys btw, I actually agree with you.

Gotcha

Like I said above, if it's just a statistical contest, why are they asking people to vote?

(so they think we're bad at math)

[Luciu5]

17 hours ago, cranky said:

“All I know is you’ve spent a lot of time and energy arguing that a Panthers player doesn’t deserve national recognition for their performance. That just seems like an odd stance for a fan to take.”

Not sure why in quotes, but yeah really odd take from that guy. Panthers nominated for award and fans are mad. That is why people say huddlers aren't actually fans because y'all don't act like fans. If you love the team, be happy for the team when good things happen. If you think being pissed at players getting awards makes you a good fan, well I really have nothing to say to that. Can't argue with stupid.

I think I'm gonna go make a thread about how it's time to pay Ickey and maybe someone will have a stroke over it. That could be fun.