Franchise QB Dominates

[45catfan]

We didn't lose because of Bryce today, but he didn't do enough to help us win either.  Being better than completely shitting the bed is a mindset we have to get beyond.  We've been horrible for so long now that mediocre QB play is looking sexy to some of you guys.

[Mr. Scot]

29 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

I haven’t said poo about Evero’s issues being Bryce’s fault.  That’s your strawman.  Not mine.

Yes, Scot, let’s delve further into run heavy offenses and look at what their QBs look like…  hell, I even threw our own Jake into the fold for shits and giggles.  

Now Jake wasn’t much of a scrambler, but there is one really glaring stat that sticks out in each of these comparisons.  Jake’s was better.  In fact, every QB I compared Bryce to had a better number there.  Furthermore, each averages at least 10 more yards a game than Bryce. Jalen and Lamar also are legit weapons as runners, which contributes to their scheme, Bryce is not.  We barely run any option because they don’t want Bryce to get broken.  So he is mostly just a passer who occasionally scrambles well.  Bryce is closer to Jake’s 59% completion pct. than Jalen or Lamar’s 64%+, and those are again, “running QBs.”  All three comps average more YPG, which may not seem huge but is significant.  All have a higher QB rating than Bryce.

edit: just for fun, because I’m sure some would argue Hurts and Jackson are unfair comparisons because they are elite so we shouldn’t expect that.  Check out Case Keenum and Tyler Huntley compared to Bryce.  They are considered backups/stopgap QBs who occasionally found their way into starting roles.  Still better than Bryce.  And this is beyond statistics.  When I watch Keenum, I don’t think: “damn, if he would’ve just made that throw.”  “Damn, he’s holding them back.”  “Damn, they can’t run that play because he’s in there.”  “Damn, he missed a wide open receiver again.”  “Damn, they’re mostly just running 5 yard hooks across the width of the field.” “Damn, he goes down easy!”  “Damn, he can’t run a QB sneak.”  “Damn, what a weak ass throw.”  Huntley was undrafted and looks like a better QB than Bryce, even without seeing the stats.

Bryce is a net negative.  When every game we play, the opposing QB is better than ours, we are already playing at a huge disadvantage, so w shave to hope beyond hope that the rest of the team plays perfect, or damn near.  That’s a ridiculous standard, especially when the biggest problem we consistently have is at the most important position on the field.

Not saying you did, but the arguments you are making aren't significantly superior to that suggestion.

Same here: Bryce has actually been a pretty effective runner. Hell, some games he's contributed more running the ball than some of the guys who get paid to do it. 

But if you wanna go this route, I'm gonna assume you've factored in the effectiveness of the respective offensive lines.

Right?

All of this ultimately boils down once again to the utterly ridiculous suggestion that any games we've won with Young under center were won in spite of him.

There are very few arguments I find dumber than that one. 

[CRA]

Just now, 45catfan said:

We didn't lose because of Bryce today, but he didn't do enough to help us win either.  Being better than completely shitting the bed is a mindset we have to get beyond.  We've been horrible for so long now that mediocre QB play is looking sexy to some of you guys.

I mean, yeah, this is correct.  This wasn’t a horrible Bryce day.  It’s was your average day from him.  Which is below average QB play.  And it means the rest of the team has to be really dang good.  

[Joe Bear]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That honor goes to Matt Rhule.

Weird way of spelling "Sean Gilbert".

[CPF4LIFE]

14 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Look at fuging Minshew, man.  His stats as a passer are far superior.

And to your point, here is Bryce’s current season versus Teddy’s season here in 2020.  And for the record, I loved Teddy in college, pulled for him early in his career as a pro player, and then the year we signed him I stated I had never watched a more painful QB performance over a season in my life.  Then along came Bryce.  This is unreal.

career:

Bryce’s current versus Teddy’s lone season here:

Holy fug man...

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, 45catfan said:

We didn't lose because of Bryce today, but he didn't do enough to help us win either.  Being better than completely shitting the bed is a mindset we have to get beyond.  We've been horrible for so long now that mediocre QB play is looking sexy to some of you guys.

Right up there with "ya know, of our receivers would have caught everything thrown to them, our line made the right blocks every time and the defense would only have allowed three and outs, we'd have won.

Bryce isn't even in the upper 70-80 percent of why we lost today.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, Joe Bear said:

Weird way of spelling "Sean Gilbert".

That name crossed my mind

[CPF4LIFE]

What makes it even worse when you apply the context of both qbs rosters and coaches its downright sad. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

I mean, yeah, this is correct.  This wasn’t a horrible Bryce day.  It’s was your average day from him.  Which is below average QB play.  And it means the rest of the team has to be really dang good.  

And I'm certain you came to this conclusion by watching the game...

Right?

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Right up there with "ya know, of our receivers would have caught everything thrown to them, our line made the right blocks every time and the defense would only have allowed three and outs, we'd have won.

Bryce isn't even in the upper 70-80 percent of why we lost today.

When the opposing QB has a near statistical sweep over your guy you're usually going to lose and he didn't have a statistical sweep because we made life easy. He was sacked more than Bryce. Pressured more than Bryce. He threw balls downfield into tight windows. We were outplayed at the most important position in the game and that usually = L. You usually need some extenuating circumstances to overcome that.

[frankw]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not contrarian at all...

Philosophical.

Look back at the Parcells quote mentioned above. It's a valid take.

And as always, I'm in no way arguing that Bryce is or should be thought of as a franchise QB.

Where I disagree is that a lot of the arguments being used to make that point are just plain terrible. 

Bryce is not the worst quarterback in history. Suggesting that is dumb.

Neither is he even the worst quarterback in the NFL right now. Hell, he's not even in the bottom tier.

And no, he isn't the primary reason for every game we've lost. Hell, I wouldn't even put him in the first, second or third tier of reasons we lost today. 

But here's the thing...

None of those things have to be true to justify the argument to move on from him.

Yet so many on here are pushing that point using arguments that are weak, lazy, emotional, irrational, illogical and hyperbolic to the point of being downright silly.

(I would have said "logic" rather than risk sounding redundant by using "arguments" again, but none of what I'm describing rises to the level of being called "logic")

You wanna argue for moving on from Bryce? Fine, I'm on your side...

...but don't do it like it's being done here.

Acknowledge reality. Accept that Bryce is indeed capable of being a good quarterback...because he is.

But he's not good enough, and you don't have to exaggerate the bad or deny the good to prove it. 

Doing so doesn't make your position look better. It actually makes it look weaker. On an intellectual level, it ranks roughly equal to saying we should have moved on from Cam Newton because he wasn't athletic enough

Bryce to his credit did not play anywhere near as bad as he had in previous outings against the Saints. He had some good moments.

But that's a testament to just how horrible he has played at times that when he plays mid we see it as a monumental achievement.

Ultimately when you watch all four quarters of this loss you will see that even though Bryce had some success the offense is still being held back by him. We run this offense to his strengths to a fault and everything has to go perfect for him to have success. The TD throw to Coker was a great play between him and Jalen but even with that it was an example of a defender getting caught flat footed. Bryce was in no way shape or form throwing lasers into tight or contested windows like Shough was and Shough was under duress for much of the first half and even the third quarter while Bryce was largely kept clean.

It's funny you mention Parcells. Parcells himself accurately summarized what Bryce Young would need to be and do in the NFL in order to justify going #1 with his glaring physical limitations.

"He better walk on water".

We've seen terrible from Bryce Young. We've seen really good. We've seen mid. None of those versions of Bryce Young will ever get this team to competing in and winning playoff games. Even when he has looked really good it's been sandwiched between games like the 49ers loss.

Bryce has graduated from being abysmal. He's now a so so servicable starter in ideal conditions. But that's not what we traded the farm for. In that regard it's time to keep looking. Nothing personal against him nothing biased just plain old fashioned acknowledgement of reality and the situation as it stands.

And to be clear Bryce is not the only part of this roster we need to be taking a long hard look at. There are guys some of whom are making a boatload of money who need to be consistent or else too. And our head coach needs to call a better game in crucial moments and stop getting outcoached or we need to weigh all possible options in the offseason. 

I said all along this game would be a watershed moment for this roster this staff and this team with finally breaking a curse of 8 years of losing at stake. There are many difficult truths we need to be facing after this loss. And no matter how uncomfortable it may be each and every one of those truths must be faced head on. Beginning with the most consequential position on the football field.

Edited 3 hours ago by frankw

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

I could watch this game and not see him as an issue.

(in fact, I did)

Other games? Maybe. This game? No.

Despite the common mindset on here, not every loss or every issue the team has is traceable to Bryce. 

Dude what the fug are you talking about.    He cannot even average 200 yards.    Its like you want to argue just to argue.   Go to bed

[Proudiddy]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not saying you did, but the arguments you are making aren't significantly superior to that suggestion.

Same here: Bryce has actually been a pretty effective runner. Hell, some games he's contributed more running the ball than some of the guys who get paid to do it. 

But if you wanna go this route, I'm gonna assume you've factored in the effectiveness of the respective offensive lines.

Right?

All of this ultimately boils down once again to the utterly ridiculous suggestion that any games we've won with Young under center were won in spite of him.

There are very few arguments I find dumber than that one. 

Scot, the goalposts are moving again.

After signing Hunt and Lewis and then playing a full season, we have what many considered one of the better OLs in the league.  I can’t remember where we fell or how it was measured, but I believe we were considered top 5?  We’ve had injuries, but as of now, we really are only down Hunt.  The OL hasn’t been a problem outside of Corbett starting at C those couple games.  And yes, Bryce gets yards as a runner because he often bails on passing once he gets uncomfortable - much like Justin Fields.  That’s not to take away from his stats for doing it but the point is, because he’s pressured and is scared to throw some plays the defense will live with his scrambles, that doesn’t make him a dynamic runner.  I don’t think teams consider him a threat as a runner, and he rarely breaks tackles in the open field.  It’s often feels like teams allow him that.  Even today, that last third down, he got pressured, climbed the pocket, and as soon as he moved up the middle his head came down and he never looked back up.  That’s third down on what ended up being our last drive and he didn’t even look to pass once pressured, so the defense let him run a little bit on a 3rd and 20 or whatever it was.  Yards for nothing.

And I didn’t say every game we won, we won in spite of Bryce, but out of 3 years, I can probably count on one hand the games I could say we won BECAUSE of Bryce.  That, imo, is enough criteria to decline a 5th year option and hit reset at QB.

[Mr. Scot]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

Not true.  Your boy Scott Fitterer was a disaster that overlapped Rhule and was big part of the mess.  

why it was argued Fitterer should of left with Rhule and we should of had a clean slate from their stupidity.  You know then, when you were screaming Fitterer was good. 

Fitterer didn't have final say until Reich.