Carolina Still Not Respected

[electro's horse]

2 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

I guess so. Don't think I was involved with previous discussions. 

Tepper is one of the newest owners in the NFL. Dan is going into his 3rd season as a GM - ever. Dave is going into his 3rd season as a HC - ever. Before becoming a HC, he was an OC/playcaller for one season total. Idzik is about to go into his 1st year as a play caller - ever. WRs are rookies, sophomores and 3rd year guys - though the experienced 3rd year guys are XL and Coker (who has missed a ton of games). TEs are guys going into their 2nd and 3rd seasons, and Tommy Tremble - though Sanders has missed a ton of games. QB has played 3 years. Chuba is an experienced RB, but Brooks and Etienne have taken very little snaps at the position. O-line is more experienced vets with some talent - which is HUGE. Need them to stay healthy. I mean the offense is very young in every aspect except O-line. You see it differently?

Not to me but I'm jumping in here. 

On offense, the NFL is easier than ever. The rules have all been changed in their favor, college game is more advanced, they're better athletes with better training, etc. 

Dan has been in the NFL almost constantly since he was drafted in 2001. He's been in the league for nearly a quarter century, in a variety of roles, in multiple organizations as a FO person and player, with only a brief absence to somehow run a pizza restaurant into the ground. Just because he's been the final decision maker (supposedly) for three years doesn't change that. 

Dave is A Bad Headcoach and I hate him, but there's no shortage of examples of coaches having very quick success. The superbowl was just won by a coach in his second season. Matt Lafleur was OC for only 2 seasons. Ben Johnson got 11 wins out of the dismal Bears. Liam Cohen came from the same place our coach did and immediately had the Jags playing better than the Panthers ever have. Demeco has been to the playoffs 3 times in 3 years.

Canales has been in the NFL for 15 years, and has been around success in multiple franchises. It's clear he wasn't the key to the success (actually demoted towards the end of his time in Seattle, Tampa Bay did better without him) but another year or two isn't going to change anything; he is what he is. On top of that, he's actually giving up responsibilities in his fourth year. He already didn't have roster control over the defense down to gameday starters (unthinkable) but now he's not even calling plays. He's not some organizational guru like Andy Reid (didn't even hire the DC). Not sure I can think of another coach who's doing less in his third year than Canales is now that wasn't poo canned. 

There's no role for the tight end in this offense so it doesn't really matter, but I'm going to go ahead and combine this with WR because the college game is so advanced (see *) now they don't really have the transition period they did in the past. I mean Tet immediately looked the part, Coker is (imo) the best player on the team, and there just isn't a lot of room for a third wide receiver to have any production. This is another reason burning a third on a WR* was such a stupid thing. What's the marginal improvement here? You've already got a couple of straight line guys who can't block in the running game. 

Offensive line is this team's strength. Good mix of young/old, good and bad contracts, good coaching etc. Good position to be in

Bryce is entering his fourth year and he just is what he is. There were multiple first and second year QBs who outperformed him/looked better last year. Shough was a rookie who outplayed him twice and looked better overall. Assuming you can make him stop diving headfirst into walls, you absolutely take Jaxson Dart over Bryce moving forward. Contract not withstanding I think most people take Cam Ward over Bryce in a vacuum. Maye is in his 2nd year and (2025 schedule not withstanding) looks worlds better than Bryce. And that's to say nothing about Caleb, CJ or motherfuging Bo Nix; i don't think someone can honestly stay they'd take Bryce over any of those players. yeah sure CJ looked like poo against the Broncos in the playoffs. I don't even want to think about what Bryce would have looked like against that defense. And also I don't want to hear about Drake Maye in the playoffs; LA, Houston, Denver, Seattle is probably the hardest stretch of defenses any QB has ever had to go through in the playoffs ever. And they weren't just very good defenses; seattle and houston were HISTORICALLY good.

Anyway to wrap this up, the "experience" argument doesn't really work for the Panthers since all the key players are well past what you could realistically say is their initiation phase or whatever in the modern NFL. At the end of the day Canales and Bryce are just bad at their jobs, and when you compare them to their contemporaries it only reinforces this notion. I sincerely cannot think of a QB whos had more resources dedicated to his drafting and "success" than Bryce, and I can't think of a third year coach who does less than Canales is poised to do heading into this season. 

* Tennessee wide receivers in the nfl lmao 

[45catfan]

Our schedule is brutal.  I think that alone costs us like 3 wins versus a more balanced schedule.  I'll reserve my W-L prediction until training camp, but I doubt I have the team with the amount of wins as I had last year despite an improved roster.

So I get why people are not super optimistic about our upcoming season.

[Navy_football]

1 hour ago, electro's horse said:

Not to me but I'm jumping in here. 

On offense, the NFL is easier than ever. The rules have all been changed in their favor, college game is more advanced, they're better athletes with better training, etc. 

Dan has been in the NFL almost constantly since he was drafted in 2001. He's been in the league for nearly a quarter century, in a variety of roles, in multiple organizations as a FO person and player, with only a brief absence to somehow run a pizza restaurant into the ground. Just because he's been the final decision maker (supposedly) for three years doesn't change that. 

Dave is A Bad Headcoach and I hate him, but there's no shortage of examples of coaches having very quick success. The superbowl was just won by a coach in his second season. Matt Lafleur was OC for only 2 seasons. Ben Johnson got 11 wins out of the dismal Bears. Liam Cohen came from the same place our coach did and immediately had the Jags playing better than the Panthers ever have. Demeco has been to the playoffs 3 times in 3 years.

Canales has been in the NFL for 15 years, and has been around success in multiple franchises. It's clear he wasn't the key to the success (actually demoted towards the end of his time in Seattle, Tampa Bay did better without him) but another year or two isn't going to change anything; he is what he is. On top of that, he's actually giving up responsibilities in his fourth year. He already didn't have roster control over the defense down to gameday starters (unthinkable) but now he's not even calling plays. He's not some organizational guru like Andy Reid (didn't even hire the DC). Not sure I can think of another coach who's doing less in his third year than Canales is now that wasn't poo canned. 

There's no role for the tight end in this offense so it doesn't really matter, but I'm going to go ahead and combine this with WR because the college game is so advanced (see *) now they don't really have the transition period they did in the past. I mean Tet immediately looked the part, Coker is (imo) the best player on the team, and there just isn't a lot of room for a third wide receiver to have any production. This is another reason burning a third on a WR* was such a stupid thing. What's the marginal improvement here? You've already got a couple of straight line guys who can't block in the running game. 

Offensive line is this team's strength. Good mix of young/old, good and bad contracts, good coaching etc. Good position to be in

Bryce is entering his fourth year and he just is what he is. There were multiple first and second year QBs who outperformed him/looked better last year. Shough was a rookie who outplayed him twice and looked better overall. Assuming you can make him stop diving headfirst into walls, you absolutely take Jaxson Dart over Bryce moving forward. Contract not withstanding I think most people take Cam Ward over Bryce in a vacuum. Maye is in his 2nd year and (2025 schedule not withstanding) looks worlds better than Bryce. And that's to say nothing about Caleb, CJ or motherfuging Bo Nix; i don't think someone can honestly stay they'd take Bryce over any of those players. yeah sure CJ looked like poo against the Broncos in the playoffs. I don't even want to think about what Bryce would have looked like against that defense. And also I don't want to hear about Drake Maye in the playoffs; LA, Houston, Denver, Seattle is probably the hardest stretch of defenses any QB has ever had to go through in the playoffs ever. And they weren't just very good defenses; seattle and houston were HISTORICALLY good.

Anyway to wrap this up, the "experience" argument doesn't really work for the Panthers since all the key players are well past what you could realistically say is their initiation phase or whatever in the modern NFL. At the end of the day Canales and Bryce are just bad at their jobs, and when you compare them to their contemporaries it only reinforces this notion. I sincerely cannot think of a QB whos had more resources dedicated to his drafting and "success" than Bryce, and I can't think of a third year coach who does less than Canales is poised to do heading into this season. 

* Tennessee wide receivers in the nfl lmao 

I think it's short sighted to judge a QB or HC in a vacuum. They both need good players to be successful. That's the GM's role. And he's young in his role too. His general experience in the league gives him a bit of an advantage/perspective that everyone doesn't have. But he still has to perfect his role as a GM. 

But whether they're good or not, they are young in their roles. That is the point I was making. Could they be better at what they do? Of course. But it's hard to have early success when you have so many major areas still figuring out how to do their jobs at the same time. Asking a QB to pass for 4000 yards when neither of his 2 best WRs have played a full season is a tall task. Asking a HC to be an effective HC while he's calling plays when he's only done it for 3 years, and he has a young roster is a tall ask. Especially with a roster with so many holes and lack of talent. But that young label is definitely coming to its end. It's about time to start showing major improvements on offense, defense and coaching. Dan has had 3 drafts/offseasons to improve the roster. Dave has had 2 training camps. Bryce has had 3 seasons, though that first season was a pretty tough situation for anyone to learn, let alone have success. The QB is on the hotseat. Mostly because it's pay up or shut up time. He's ran out of time. Doesn't matter if he has reasons or not. 

Not getting into the other stuff. Too many layers to pull back. 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, Navy_football said:

The QB is on the hotseat. Mostly because it's pay up or shut up time. He's ran out of time. Doesn't matter if he has reasons or not. 

I sure hope that's the thought process inside the Panthers' organization but I seriously doubt it.

[electro's horse]

Every team has excuses. Every team has injuries. No situation is perfect. It is completely reasonable to compare Bryce and Canales to their contemporaries and judge them accordingly.

Edited 5 hours ago by electro's horse

[mrcompletely11]

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I sure hope that's the thought process inside the Panthers' organization but I seriously doubt it.

After the rhetoric from the past few weeks I highly doubt it 

[LinvilleGorge]

12 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

After the rhetoric from the past few weeks I highly doubt it 

The rhetoric from the Panthers on this since day one has been that they have "conviction" on Bryce and no amount of evidence to the contrary was going to convince them otherwise. It seems like we've gone out of our way to avoid putting any pressure on him, at least publicly and seemingly internally if roster construction is any indication.

[strato]

17 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

After the rhetoric from the past few weeks I highly doubt it 

They act like they have turned the corner and just expect to win. Who are they trying to convince? Us I guess. Maybe themselves. 
 

No doubt the team is much better than 2023 but we finished 1-4 (counting WC game) when we controlled our destiny. And got a very favorable playoff matchup. That mostly, we acquitted ourselves very well in. I mean, they played like they belonged in that game. Still, it seems premature. 

Edited 5 hours ago by strato

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, strato said:

They act like they have turned the corner and just expect to win. Who are they trying to convince? Us I guess. Maybe themselves. 
 

No doubt the team is much better than 2023 but we finished 1-4 (counting WC game) when we controlled our destiny. And got a very favorable playoff matchup. That mostly, we acquitted ourselves very well in. Still, it seems premature. 

and our offense was one of the worst in the league the last quarter of the season

[strato]

And pretty bad most of the time all season. 
 

If they don’t get that running game up to beast level this year we will see the truth. 

[Basbear]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The rhetoric from the Panthers on this since day one has been that they have "conviction" on Bryce and no amount of evidence to the contrary was going to convince them otherwise. It seems like we've gone out of our way to avoid putting any pressure on him, at least publicly and seemingly internally if roster construction is any indication.

Think about when Derek Anderson came in here, if that happened to BY with the same era of Anderson losing his prime talents, he'd crush BY in practices.

 

I swear, I think Mike White came in here last season and made a couple throws and it got the team talking among themselves "wow BY can not make that throw" "great on time deep ball, I haven't seen BY do that.." Etc etc. When he came on , the team did finish on a losing deal. You can not tell me fuging Pickett and Grier were not handed pick to not pose a threat to Mr. #1 overall trade up for top point guard ...... Then I see Dan talk non-stop about his main goal is adding competition to each position, fuger look at your QB room and say that BS..... 

[LinvilleGorge]

17 minutes ago, Basbear said:

You can not tell me fuging Pickett and Grier were not handed pick to not pose a threat to Mr. #1 overall trade up for top point guard ...... Then I see Dan talk non-stop about his main goal is adding competition to each position, fuger look at your QB room and say that BS..... 

Bingo. Sure seems like not having an arm that might make Bryce look bad in comparison is the primary criteria for being added to the QB room in Carolina because we sure are piling up guys who have subpar at best NFL arms.

[strato]

15 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Bingo. Sure seems like not having an arm that might make Bryce look bad in comparison is the primary criteria for being added to the QB room in Carolina because we sure are piling up guys who have subpar at best NFL arms.

I am devil’s advocate here on that. There is a special kind of logic that says emulate your starter when you pick your backup, that could be in play. Next level poo. 

Atlanta got a LH backup for their LH starter.  We got a weak armed low velocity high arc thrower for ours. 
It means the timing of the guys playing on the second team is more tuned to what they will have to sync with if they have to step up to the ones. 
 

Tell me it doesn’t make a lot of sense on some level. 
 

Edited 4 hours ago by strato

[jfra78]

Our QB room feels like a punt till the next draft