The Forgotten Man

[Fox007]

Ben played like crap in his first Super Bowl. The defense (some would say the refs) won that one for the Steelers. He was better in his second one, but still the margin of victory was owed as much to James Harrison as anyone. And on the other side, Kurt Warner, a former Super Bowl MVP and a Delhomme type castoff.

I'd add that pointing to the Steelers in general, but especially to their earlier four trophies as a sign that the franchise QB model works demonstrates a significant lack of knowledge about football history.

The 70s Steelers were the absolute model of a run-first, rely on the defense type of team. And that QB they had wasn't exactly the best of his day. He was more of a gunslinger type who made his living throwing bombs to a couple of great receivers. (sound familiar?)

The team that followed more closely to the model of the "centerpiece QB" was the Cowboys, the ones who were continually losing Super Bowls to the Steelers.

Yet the Steelers haven't won a SB w/o a first round QB.

Sure we know what their philosophy is, but who carries that out?(obviously not just anyone)

I said I think those guys are franchise QB's.

Like Ben and I said Jake would be one to me too if we would have say made it to the playoffs from 2003-2008. Or only missing it once or so.

Like McNabb is a franchise QB............as another example.....(and the eagles are known for their defense)

Plus I never said anything about how they went about winning those games or how they played in those games.(they had to get there)

Manning as has been stated, played like sh*t in the playoffs(and SB) in which they won, yet he is still a franchise QB.

[Fireball77]

Gibbs even dragged Henning to a SB...that alone speaks of his genius...lol

JK...I'm not a "Henning is the root of all evil" person....but I couldn't pass that one up.

People forget that despite the brilliance of NON FRANCHISE QB (in my definition of one) Joe Montana that the Niners had some naaasstttyyy defenses in those years.

Elway is another "franchise" type guy who had some HORRIFIC SB performances and finally in his twilight years when they had complete teams they won a couple.

[CatMan72]

I've also never seen a quote the the Panthers would not draft a QB in the first-round, and it's my understanding that the Panthers were a fax from the Colts away from drafting Peyton Manning....

I think the truth is that drafting a QB in the first round is a very risky proposition... think about Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf who were considered equally good prospects by most experts at the time... think about Heath Schuler or more recently Alex Smith.. missing on a 1st round pick at QB can set a franchise waaaaay back. I think the Panthers would only use a 1st round pick on a QB if another Matt Ryan or Peyton Manning was sitting out there.

I do think however, that if by some miracle Josh Freeman was still on the board when the Panthers pick came up, they will take him.

[CatMan72]

Gibbs even dragged Henning to a SB...that alone speaks of his genius...lol

JK...I'm not a "Henning is the root of all evil" person....but I couldn't pass that one up.

People forget that despite the brilliance of NON FRANCHISE QB (in my definition of one) Joe Montana that the Niners had some naaasstttyyy defenses in those years.

Elway is another "franchise" type guy who had some HORRIFIC SB performances and finally in his twilight years when they had complete teams they won a couple.

Yeah, and Dan Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins... Cutler should take notice and suck it up.

[Fox007]

Of course its hugely hit or miss, it can help grant you a dynasty or set you back several years.

That's how it is. Who is saying it isn't?

[CatMan72]

Of course its hugely hit or miss, it can help grant you a dynasty or set you back several years.

That's how it is. Who is saying it isn't?

I'll spell it out for you: The conservative approach the Panthers take in general makes them less likely to gamble a 1st round pick on a QB.

[methodtoll]

and by the way, someone explain to me why we haven't restructured Jake's contract yet? Wouldn't that actually help with the cap?

Why haven't we re-signed Moore or McCown since all three QBs are under contract year?

[Doc Holiday]

oh there is Josh McCown naysayers and I've been one of them, if there is an answer for QB on our team he's not it.

[Mr. Scot]

and by the way, someone explain to me why we haven't restructured Jake's contract yet? Wouldn't that actually help with the cap?

Why haven't we re-signed Moore or McCown since all three QBs are under contract year?

My personal theory is the "if you don't have it, you won't spend it" strategy. Meaning that the team might be saving that move for when they need room to sign draft picks. By not doing it now, they don't risk the temptation to use up that space on something else.

As to all the QBs being unsigned, I do think the uncertainty about next year's cap status could play a role.

Again though, I do certainly allow for at least the possibility that the Panthers might not have restructured Delhomme because they plan to release him after June 1st. I'd be highly surprised if that happened, mind you, but I don't completely discount it.

It's in that scenario that I can see Josh McCown being named the starter. And I'll grant that open competition is an option in such a case as this, but given the way the team prefers to operate and how they like their QBs, elevating McCown seems more likely.

We all remember how reluctant the team was to hand the keys to Moore in 2007, signing Vinny Testaverde of all people instead.

[VA Panther Fan]

Yet he was taken 1st overall, by a very successful team....I guess that means nothing.

So what you're really trying to say is, the Panthers will never be in position to draft or get a highly rated QB because their defense will never be that good?(mainly because of coaching i agree)

For a team that does like to run, run, run, and play hellacious defense, they sure have a knack for drafting first round QB's.(do your history)

I guess that IS a coincidence

Based on your (faulty) logic, all a team has to do is draft a first-round QB and then line up the parades.

So, how are Ryan Leaf and Heath Shuler enjoying their Super Bowl triumphs?

[mantal]

The point that I tend to argue the most when it comes to this QB discussion is that the fact that people still CLAIM that Fox and Hurney have come out and stated that they wouldn't draft a QB in the first because it will take them too long to develop.. Yet, I haven't seen anyone directly quote Fox or Hurney on it. How about finding me proof and then I will believe you.

I have stated that Fox and Hurney came right out and said that their philosophy is not to take a QB in the first round, not that they would never do it. I cannot find the article because panthers.com does not keep archives going back years, but I did find Hurney discussing the issue in a John Clayton article...

"It's a question of patience with quarterbacks," Panthers general manager Marty Hurney said. "With first-rounders, you want to fill immediate holes. At quarterback, that doesn't happen. Most people feel that quarterbacks need time. So much more is put on the quarterback position than others. You have to be physical. Leadership is hard to gauge early. You have to decide not knowing how a player is going to do with these intangibles. On a high pick, you have to hit on it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/columnist?id=1540370

[Mr. Scot]

I have stated that Fox and Hurney came right out and said that their philosophy is not to take a QB in the first round, not that they would never do it. I cannot find the article because panthers.com does not keep archives going back years, but I did find Hurney discussing the issue in a John Clayton article...

Good find.

And just to be clear, people shouldn't act like the Panthers are the only team that takes this approach to the QB position. There are others.

[Fox007]

Based on your (faulty) logic, all a team has to do is draft a first-round QB and then line up the parades.

So, how are Ryan Leaf and Heath Shuler enjoying their Super Bowl triumphs?

Nope that's just your (offbase)assumption based off not really understanding what is really being said.

Scroll up to where I said it is hit or miss.(obviously acknowledging that it isn't that simple)

The point is its a risk the good/great teams take and a risk you ultimately and historically have to take to get over the top.(and stay on top for that time period)

Obviously there will be the few exceptions to the rule.

But by all means continue to think it a coincidence that the best teams in NFL history do what I am saying.

[Snake]

I really dont see McCown or Moore being or next starter. McCown has an arm on him but is not a long term deal and Moore just dose not have the arm of Jake. Still both could start and be successful.